Grooms riding in container of semi with horses

[StormyDay]

@kenyarider

I posted this because I wanted to highlight an issue of the hunter/jumper “industry” which is: the continuing oppression of young people and undocumented people by the Uber rich. My question to all of you is what are you going to to do about this and when? Clutching your pearls, blaming the victim, claiming that the young people are willing victims is a cop out for your comfort. When will we step up and acknowledge that we owe our fellow humans a decent wage, decent living conditions and decent work conditions? And if we are not willing to do that, then, perhaps, we need to own our love the of systems of slavery, feudalism and conscription our own pleasure and that we will continue to ignore and condone them? Just saying… . .

I don’t think anyone has Pearl clutched or blamed any victim.

Many horse owners do provide a fair wage and decent living conditions for their staff. I have been to ‘staff’ accommodations for seasonal barn workers that was nicer than my house. Many of these barns provide their employees with nice housing, company vehicles, and competitive pay.

The best way to combat the darker side of this is to not support the trainers or riders who treat their employees poorly. And if you are an employee who is treated poorly, speak up about it.

But I (or you) can’t change the way others treat employees. Thats on them. I’m not responsible for how others act. I am responsible for myself, and so therefore I will treat my employees with respect and avoid business with those who don’t.

[erinmeri]

Color my pearls clutched. I haven’t read through this thread, but 20Ish years ago on the West Coast in top barns… grooms hid in the gooseneck to get to Del Mar. They were literally stuffed behind bales of hay. At almost any show, they slept in stalls. None of this is okay. It may not be the intent of this thread and perhaps this is no longer the case… and I am on a different coast in a different knid of barn… but we need to treat our grooms better. It is abhorrent.

[Knights_Mom]

I used to get bitter comments from fellow barn owners because I paid my workers WELL. And these workers were the nicest guys and great workers and they loved the horses so I thought it fair they be compensated for their excellence.

[erinmeri]

If I hear one more rich white person bitch about the “quality of their help”, I might literally implode. Do these jerks not understand who actually takes care of their animals?!?

[fair_judy]

Notice that Babington says” So who is the bad actor in the above scenario? The groom for not trying to rise to the standard of care, for his lack of work ethic, for taking offense instead of learning how to care for legs, for not giving notice? Or the other professional for being desperate enough in their own situation to throw common decency away for self-interest? ”

NEVER ONCE does she consider that the issue might be her own. This kind of entitlement is nauseating.

[Night_Flight]

What really stood out to me was when she said that if a groom puts out the word that they’re unhappy and looking for a new job, that no other trainer should offer them a job. Lady, nobody owes it to you to stay in a job that makes them miserable.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Babington really outed herself with that essay in a not-good way–she didn’t even understand how tone-deaf she sounded, clearly. But I have to say, it’s depressing to see even barns I respected advertising for help in FB groups for experienced help and are only paying minimum wage (and for “real” work, not just stall cleaning, and not even offering reduced board or lessons as additional compensation).

I admit I probably haven’t even questioned it enough myself in the past, partially because I come from an arts background, where there is (in a different way) a “you should feel grateful to volunteer for 12 hours a day for the experience” mentality. I took the “working student” thing for granted. The difference is that skilled behind-the-scenes workers in the arts aren’t as routinely poorly paid in unionized jobs.

The “move your horse if the staff isn’t being paid enough” doesn’t really work, since there is usually little transparency re: that issue.

I am not surprised someone (without ambitions to advance in the sport) would prefer the predictable, safer work of a landscaping company, often with more collegial bosses.

[Mara]

Hopefully Diana Babington treats the people now helping her care for her paralyzed husband with more respect than she did her grooms. If she thinks good horse people are hard to find…

[mvp]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

The “move your horse if the staff isn’t being paid enough” doesn’t really work, since there is usually little transparency re: that issue.

I don’t think the opacity of what grooms or barn staff are being paid is nearly as complete as you make it sound. Do you honestly think there’s, say, even a 50/50 chance that they are being compensated well? How about merely fairly?

IMO, the solution is at the top of the food chain: HOs need to pay more for boarding, less for horse shows (particularly to show managers and for those facilities) and perhaps less for horses. You don’t get to enjoy a luxury hobby by making another person subsidize that with shit wages. That’s plain old exploitation.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Totally agree. It’s cringey to see stables that invest so much money in showing (including the fluffy aspects of showing that have little to do with riding) and likely pay the staff as little as the barn can get away with.

[alicen]

But Babington is talking $650/per week - although no mention of hours.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

Totally agree with this as well, and that was just the number she referenced in the article. No guarantee that’s what she actually pays. And yeah, it’s a high-risk job you can never get away from, really.

[LilDunFilly]

@Turntable

That’s $33K a year which is to put it bluntly- jack shit, especially as I’m guessing it does not come with medical, dental and vision or any paid leave. Unless you get very good benefits and a generous housing stipend or housing suitable for you and your family (not a crappy trailer) it’s not a living wage. When you look at the level of responsibility and the hours? it’s a joke. For comparison: it’s about a third of what you’d earn managing a single McDonalds location.

The horse industry takes advantage of immigrants with no other choices and that’s the truth.

Yeah that is absolutely nothing where I live (CA). $650 a week, assuming a 40 hour work week (and we all know the average groom is going to be working more than that) is only $16.25 BEFORE taxes. That is about a dollar above minimum wage* here. Assuming they go home with about 75% of their paycheck after taxes, that is under $2k a month and that will not last long in LA.

*It goes up in January to $15/$14 from $14/$13, depending on the number of employees.

[mvp]

@alicen

But Babington is talking $650/per week - although no mention of hours.

I love how Babington blames everyone else, claims to have no solution and then wants to pay grooms $650/week.

I will bet that most of her problems would disappear if she doubled or tripled that salary.

[Night_Flight]

Plus, if she’s paying the bare minimum, which she really is if her grooms, like most, work 6 days a week for much longer than a typical workday, she really shouldn’t be complaining that the people who are coming to work for her require training and aren’t arriving with extensive skills.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

If workers are undocumented, I’m also sure that just getting paychecks on time is a hassle (which is another reason workers often quit and just up and leave overnight). I mean, even freelancers often complain about this re: desk jobs. And an undocumented worker isn’t going to complain to the law about an employer who won’t pay for work he legitimately did.

Most jobs I see advertised on horse FB groups don’t advertise salaries (it’s always “PM for more details”) but often it’s like, $12 an hour, even for relatively nice barns.

[LilDunFilly]

Ehhh, I feel a “stipend” is a very different beast than “general pay”. I’ve seen a lot of people get burned by taking a tiny stipend for a WS position because they didn’t actually get the experience they were promised (fewer lessons/no lessons than promised, verbal abuse, much longer hours than originally stated, falling out with the trainer so can’t use them as a reference). This is very regional dependent, but I don’t consider stipends to be viable unless they allow the person getting the stipend to actually live in at-least semi-healthy fashion. I had a position that gave me housing, food stipend, and general stipend, which was great on paper and terrible in practice. The housing was worse than promised. The food stipend wasn’t cash and could only be used at ~3 local places, in addition to being way too small ($50 a week but the cheapest meal option at any of the places is ~$10 and cooking isn’t really possible in the accommodations). The general stipend went towards me eating more than once per day and all the things I still needed (toiletries, horse board, etc.). And of course, I worked way more hours than I was contracted to and was not paid the required overtime. I left that position. I’m not a fan of anyone working for below minimum wage, especially when handling animals that can and will cripple you in a heartbeat, regardless of industry standard.

@Turntable

I could totally see a PhD student being asked to do something illegal and somewhat dangerous like riding in a trailer though. It’s a good thing they work for the university and not directly for their mentors so there are some health and safety rules in place.

I was definitely asked to do some questionably legal things (or at least not OSHA compliant) while working at a university-affiliated barn. There was a chain of command to go to about preventing that, unlike any rando barn, but it still happens.

[LilDunFilly]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

Most jobs I see advertised on horse FB groups don’t advertise salaries (it’s always “PM for more details”) but often it’s like, $12 an hour, even for relatively nice barns.

There was an equestrian center in the area that was looking for a property/barn manager and DID include an annual salary. Job included general office management, dealing with the show grounds/stabling, checking on the full-time stabled horses, and a bunch of other tasks, in addition to being 6 days a week and up to 10 hour days. Coworker and I did the math; the annual salary wound up being UNDER minimum wage for the amount of hours worked.

[Mara]

@LilDunFilly

@Turntable

That’s $33K a year which is to put it bluntly- jack shit, especially as I’m guessing it does not come with medical, dental and vision or any paid leave. Unless you get very good benefits and a generous housing stipend or housing suitable for you and your family (not a crappy trailer) it’s not a living wage. When you look at the level of responsibility and the hours? it’s a joke. For comparison: it’s about a third of what you’d earn managing a single McDonalds location.

The horse industry takes advantage of immigrants with no other choices and that’s the truth.

Yeah that is absolutely nothing where I live (CA). $650 a week, assuming a 40 hour work week (and we all know the average groom is going to be working more than that) is only $16.25 BEFORE taxes. That is about a dollar above minimum wage* here. Assuming they go home with about 75% of their paycheck after taxes, that is under $2k a month and that will not last long in LA.

*It goes up in January to $15/$14 from $14/$13, depending on the number of employees.

In Wellington it’d be hard to even feed yourself decently on $33k/year. Market prices there are within the means of the wealthy, not so much so for the people the wealthy depend on to keep their lives running smoothly and stress-free.

[Knights_Mom]

@Turntable

@Night_Flight

What really stood out to me was when she said that if a groom puts out the word that they’re unhappy and looking for a new job, that no other trainer should offer them a job.

My lawyer brother and husband have a running joke that the entire A show hunter circuit could probably be taken down as a criminal conspiracy if anyone cared to look into it. I should send them this article as more evidence.

Laws meant to take down gangsters are being used to take down all sorts of corrupt organizations and a horse association would not in any way be exempt. RICO certainly applies. Racketeering, enterprise corruption, organized crime laws may certainly also apply.