Groundwork and ground manners - english and western

I think you’re touching on an issue with the democratization of horsemanship. You don’t make an ordeal out of groundwork or blow up at your horses, but by your own admission you spent your teen years riding dressage. Presumably then, you got a good education (or at least a grounding in) the concepts of timing, release, and feel. Most other English riders I have known have also gotten a feel for at least the basics of those concepts. There’s still the last gasps of institutional equestrian education alive in barns that can afford to maintain a lesson string and a series of instructors that can progress a rider from up/down lessons to 2’6" or (if you’re lucky) 3’ hunters or jumpers.

By contrast – and this is not meant to be a representative sample at all, just qualitative observations – most of the western riders I’ve known have not had that same thorough background. Some came to horses later in life; some took up/down lessons as a kid, but their families ran out of time or money. Regardless, they tended to turn to the popular tele-instructors. They could buy a prepackaged course and be introduced to the same concepts – broken into convenient, easy to digest chunks – that you and I learned in riding schools as kids. For far cheaper than a year’s worth of weekly lessons.

But we all know that there’s a problem with that. You can’t learn timing and feel just from watching a video. If you’re new to riding and you’ve never had a chance to learn just how light your aids can get, you’ll never be able to refine them to that point. Your finished aids are going to be comparatively loud, and your starting point is going to be even louder. If you’ve got a problem to fix, and you’re used to operating on a scale of “scream” to “talk,” you’re going to be more likely to start at “scream,” even if starting at “talk” will do. And you probably won’t ever get to “whisper.”

I have known a number of wonderful western riders; I’m not trying to tar and feather everyone who rides in a western saddle. However, these men and women have either come from an English riding school background (as close to a formal, institutional background as you’ll easily get these days), or they’ve learned their craft from their family (the quintessential informal system of education). But there’s a part of American culture that promotes western riding as something for the everyman, and I think that’s the root cause of the concept of manners as something that youhave to be constantly, deliberately, and loudly schooling. The Average Joe who buys a cheap horse and a cheap saddle and doesn’t want to fuss with formal riding education is going to see behavior as the easiest thing to control. To his benefit, usually, as he generally doesn’t have the ability to ride a horse with a bit of chutzpah. But at the same time, it feeds into a culture where we both erroneously equinize human behavior and anthropomorphize equine behavior, and where we see manners as a whole, discrete unit, instead of a piece of the horse training puzzle. It becomes a thought terminating cliche. Or worse, it colors your whole set of interactions with these animals.

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Honestly, you’re right. I have been privileged with experiences I’ve had. At the same barn, I was also allowed to ride a number of lovely and well-trained western horses. Two of them were all rounders which included showmanship; talk about excellent ground manners. Several were cutting horses. Unfortunately, I only had a few lessons due to the generosity of several riding instructors. There was no way my parents nor I could afford to purchase or lease a horse. I wish I had realized how precious these rich and varied experiences were but ah, the folly of youth. (And just so you don’t think I believe myself to be some great thing - nope, I was never accomplished at much) So yes, dressage definitely helped my riding but I cannot give that foundation credit for guiding my groundwork or desire for good manners.

Greg Ward was known for colts you had to saddle and mount on the fly … he didn’t care about that stuff .

I’d compare him to Hester five days a week.

​https://horseandrider.com/training/greg-ward-farewell-to-the-master

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Thanks everyone for your replies!

Follow up question: what about concepts like sacking out? Do those apply equally to both disciplines?

I have never found ‘sacking out’ to be necessary. I train ‘English’ horses from day one.

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I know some Western folks that work their horses on the ground like the riders at the Spanish Riding School. I know some English riders that ye-haw their horses on the ground like a bunch of horse-illiterate rednecks. And then there’s the whole world of North American gaited horses where ground work runs from very professional to completely absent.

I guess that suggest the shape of the saddle, boots, or hat really is irrelevant!!! :slight_smile:

Good ground work is good ground work.

Regarding, “sacking out,” if you mean that as a euphemism for de-sensitization training then EVERYBODY has to do that at one time or another. If you mean it in the sense of using a piece of tarp or, in it’s original sense, an old, burlap feed sack, then not everyone does it in any broad category of equine discipline.

People new to the horse world sometimes don’t realize how much equine terminology is regional or discipline-specific. And, being new, they sometimes don’t ask questions when confronted with a new term for some activity. And older hands often behave badly towards the tyros making fun of them or engaging in pranks.

The new folks have to suck it up and ask the questions. Older folks have to behave more like adults and less like mischievous imps.

G.

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Well, to even the score by ragging on Western riders certainly doesn’t help. Amirite?

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While I understand the perspective and would have to agree that I’ve observed much of the same as the OP if I were to just look at many I see in dressage vs. my neighbor with his reining operation, I feel the real difference is in the horsemanship of the individuals handling the horses far less than breed differences. As a vet who use to be in all large animal/mostly equine practice at the beginning of my career, an individual who grew up on a dairy farm that depended on animals to make a living and that included horses (which were competed in draft pulls and as well as English pleasure, county pleasure and park horse classes) and one who has bred both warmbloods (holsteiners) and ‘other’ breeds I can tell you that animals that did NOT sign up to the program of safe, obedient ground manners simply did not last. In my professional life I found far more racetrack horses having some of the best ground manners compared to some of the boarding barns full of quarter horses. I also saw more difference in how horses acted depending on who was handling them (often would only work on a specific horse if the trainer was handling and not the ammy owner). Some very well behaved quarter horses could be very ill-behaved when their owners were the ones pretending to be their leader. Many lameness work ups turned into riding lessons for the very same reasons. My breeding programs culled anything that had or produced what I considered ‘poor’ temperaments/dispositions. I am a primarily ‘English’ discipline rider though I own a western saddle and have certainly won in western disciplines; but, most of all I’m a horseperson who my grandfather raised to realize that these creatures can seriously hurt you or themselves and the only way to prevent disasters is to be the leader, insist on obedience and never confuse the line between appropriate and inappropriate behavior by being lazy and not making everything black-and-white. I continue to have people comment on how well behaved my horses are and how ‘easy’ they are…well that is because from the the time they landed on the ground or entered my presence they were not given any other choice and I work with them all the time to be this way whether they have a western or english saddle on their back. My horses of course even when they were competing at FEI level dressage also doubled at competitive trail and other disciplines. BTW I’ve also seen a majority of eventers’ with horses who are ‘hotter’ in blood but solid citizens with ground manners. I do think attitude of the humans involved have a lot to do with this phenom but not because a person is in a western vs. english discipline; but, more on how their horsemanship skills developed.

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I find that for the most part ‘de-sensitisation’ happens as a matter of course in the process of regular handling: it is not a ‘topic of the day’ in itself in terms of training aims, unless something comes up in the course of regular activities that needs immediate attending to.

People who refer to ‘sacking out’ tend to see that process of de-sensitisation as step (activity) in itself. I find de-sensitisation comes about as a consequence of grooming, handling, blanketing and so on. Hence I have not encountered a ‘need’ to apply a ‘session’ of ‘sacking out’ or de-sensitisation.

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Thank you so so much for that link. You all need to read it, only takes 5 minutes but well worth many times that. Change the way you might think of things.

Should note that it’s very true once you started mounting one of his, you needed to get it over with quick but he was athletic almost until the end, not a short man and few if any of his horses were over 15h. Plus the saddle has a handle so even shorties like me could usually pull it off…long as I got told in advance it was one of his.

Anyway, read that and give his way some thought.

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Not a single poster has expressed understanding of the foundation of training, whether on the ground or in the saddle, and in any discipline. You need to understand where your horse is mentally, and get him to a place where he is mentally ready to learn. The foundation of groundwork is to get the horse calm and secure and paying attention to you. Desensitizing is the process of getting the horse to ignore things that are happening in the immediate environment that are meaningless, and pay attention to the trainer. It’s hard to get injured by a horse that is standing quietly, and not responding to the wind, horses over there running, dump trucks driving by, etc. It’s hard to fall off a horse that is going where he is supposed to be going at the speed his is supposed to be going, and not making any changes in response to the wind, horses over there running, dump trucks driving by, etc. Once the horse is mentally in a calm and confident place, you can teach him the correct responses to the correct cues.

IME, the western disciplines have, for the past several decades, incorporated this type of training into colt starting, and retraining older horses. The beginning training takes longer, but the end product is a horse that can control himself in a new or unusual situation without losing his cool. IME, the english do not have such a systematic program in place, and there is more of a macho “ride 'em through it” attitude, rather than an understanding of what the horse is trying to communicate to the trainer. They are more focused on the end result - is he forward, using his back correctly, etc rather than is he calm, relaxed and focusing on the trainer.

If anyone wants to see these concepts in real life video, you can watch what Warwick Schiller does with a very talented eventing mare who has a very talented trainer. The trainer just did not understand that all the problems she is having with this mare stem from the mare being anxious. She tries to ride the mare through the problems, the mare blows up, and the training has plateaued and there is no progress being made. She is an excellent rider, and kudos to her for quickly grasping the concepts as they work through rewiring this mare’s brain. There are a couple dozen videos in this series, and some of them honestly get quite boring, but if you can’t make it through the boring parts of the videos, you won’t make it through the boring parts of actual horse training.

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I agree with you. Mostly. Once a month or so we get out fun things like tarps and pool noodles and mattresses and have play days with each of the horses to change things up a bit. They seem to enjoy it, plus, I think it does do a good bit to build trust with rider/handler and contribute to level headed horses at new show grounds, etc.
I even knew a dressage and jumper trainer who regularly roped cattle and moved herds with his jumper horses and students. He was a god send whenever someone yelled “LOOSE HORSE!” at the shows. Dana Glass also starts the young warmbloods he gets in training this way, despite their intended future dressage careers.
While my horses and I haven’t successfully moved any cattle (we just quietly walk by whenever we encounter them lol) At least once a week they go on trail rides and hacks around the neighborhood and encounter neighbor’s horses running in pastures, various livestock, vehicles, bridges etc, and weather permitting, they even get to go swimming (the ones not yet under saddle get handwalked or long lined along with the “grown ups” on these adventures) they have all been desensitized to the whip, bathing, tieing, bikes, atvs etc…but some do require more dedication than others.
One really sensitive colt had to be sacked out in a more traditional sense. 3 years old, came to us with an extreme bolting problem and terrified of pretty much everything. Had to do a lot of ground work, yielding haunches, teaching to stand, tie, bring himself to mounting block, trust the rider or handler, and learn not to panic. For safety reasons we did this in the western saddle and installed breaks with a pully rein and one reined stop. Honestly, he seemed relieved to finally have an “off button” and finally realize there was no reason to bolt in the first place. I’m happy to say his bolting issue has de-escalated to the occasional few strides of faster trot or canter and can work right through it, no more one reined stop or little circles are necessary. But we couldn’t have gotten him there without these methods, or, likely, the western saddle. Desensitization or sacking out is still a daily thing with him, just to reiterate that the novel stimuli is no big deal and his humans can and will always get him through unknown territory. Not sure if this is a western method, English, or just good horsemanship, but it’s practiced to some degree with all our horses, as I would imagine is the case with most.
Another horse loved trail rides, outings and shows ever since we started him at 3. Then a horse crashed into him in the warm up ring at a show and he was really rattled. Would get really worried just schooling with one other horse in the ring at home, so he required some desensitization in a different sense, turning out with other horses, trail riding with lots of friends, coming along to school at every show until finally he could brave the warmup rings at Wellington again. Is this a western method? Dressage? Don’t know, but each handler has a responsibility to indentify confidence or behavioral issues in their horses and help them get past them.

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Something something don’t dish it if you ca’t take it, amirite?

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Could not agree with the above more. I’ve become a big convert to using quite a lot of the principles gleaned from Warwick Schiller’s methods. I also like about his work that he doesn’t stay discipline specific. It’s horsemanship across disciplines. Start with the foundation of calm and confident and then start putting in the discipline-specific training.

However, to echo a previous PP - this approach is more rooted in traditionally western teachings to date even if they are cross-discipline relevant (and in my mind should be adopted more widely within English training/approaches). I still use English methods of long-lining, lunging in side-reins, etc but only after the initial foundational work of ground manners and calm/confidence under-saddle is installed.

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That’s a bold move, Cotton. Let’s see if it pays off.

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There is a specific old skool idea of sacking out that seems to be away of instilling learned helplessness in a horse. I don’t think anyone reputable advocates this any more.

There are lots of good bombproofing and training for courage techniques that get a horse used to new stimuli and grow a foundation for mutual trust in new situations.

As far as the western horsemanship clinics, at least 75% is about training the newbie handler.

I certainly have helped out newbie barn friends who can’t safely lead their horses. Horse goes perfect for me. I try to communicate what I’m doing to newbie person and its impossible.

Hats off to the western horsemanship clinician who can take a newbie with two left feet and no proprioception, and teach them some rudiments about timing and feel on the ground.

I am fairly confident about being a useful hand on the ground with green horses. Or even pushy broke horses.

I can’t train their owners. Is why I am happy to be an ammie.

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@Palm Beach I don’t think that was at all a part of the question. I 100% concur with you on this:

Not a single poster has expressed understanding of the foundation of training, whether on the ground or in the saddle, and in any discipline. You need to understand where your horse is mentally, and get him to a place where he is mentally ready to learn. The foundation of groundwork is to get the horse calm and secure and paying attention to you.

Again, I agree. The OP asked about general differences in expectations between 'Western" and “English”- and I think it’s easy enough to rip off a list of things I consider sorta English:
-Horses don’t stand tied to trailers at day shows, they stand on the trailer
-you would never see a wad of H/J stashed in a panel corral together, tacked up, resting, cheek by jowl
-Horses might be sillier on the ground if they are a high-end jumper
-Horses might be more babied if they are fancy dressage horses, expected that they’ll be silly on trails and outside

And Western:

  • At day shows they stand tied to trailers
    -a wad of roping horses will stand together and be grateful to rest in the aforementioned panel corral
    -a western horse has seen it all and is expected to be a good citizen no matter what.

And full stop. Of course there are barrel horses who are idiots in the alley, and western pleasure horses who have meltdowns on trails. And there are dressage horses who are kick ass trail horses, and and and.

Where was this about the mental aspect of meeting a horse where they are so that they might learn best?

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The OP basically wants to pit English against western, in a “who is better” kind of way, although the OP denies it. It really doesn’t matter who does or did what, it only matters that trainers and riders are learning safe, effective and humane ways to train horses and educate riders so more people can safely enjoy what we are so privileged to do. Trying to make it an argument about who historically does what and why is stupid and accomplishes nothing.

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Yikes.maybe she’s a.novice who is curious and clumsy. By all means, let’s beat her up.

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What about the influence of halter and showmanship classes, including in 4-H for kids? We don’t really have that tradition in the English world–maybe part of the difference?

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