It is not my intent. It has been pointed out on these boards that in the “behind the stall door” articles on COTH that bad behavior on the ground is tolerated in many high end horses. Anecdotally, I have NEVER seen this with high end western horses, some of whom are equally hot or jazzed up.
I am curious where that stems from. I would like a rider/trainer/owner who allows such behavior to chime in, to try to gain insight into why it is not prioritized, or how the behaviors can potentially enhance performance.
There is, without a doubt, a difference in the cultures of the two disciplines. I am trying to understand how that can and/or does influence ground manners.
Good luck getting someone who does a poor job of training ground manners to volunteer to defend his/herself to you on a public forum!
I don’t agree that there is “a difference in the cultures of the two disciplines” w.r.t. ground manners. Nor do I agree that English and Western are two disciplines, each with their own unified culture! There are a number of training philosophies (disciplines) under each umbrella, and variations on those philosophies that place different values on ground manners. I’ve definitely seen poor ground manners in high end western horses! From multiple western disciplines! And excellent ground manners in English horses of various stripes and levels of competition. I’ve seen very effective ground work done by equestrians from very different backgrounds, and very ineffective groundwork at the hands of riders from both western and English backgrounds. And I’ve seen all sorts of ground manners outcomes at the hands of a not-insignificant number of people who have significant experience with training methods from both western and English disciplines. The point is, a majority of the variation I have witnessed has been at the individual (handler/rider) level, not the discipline or basic riding style (western vs. English) level. I think a lot of us aren’t engaging in the debate that you want because we don’t buy in to the premise at the foundation of your post.
That premise is that the set of disciplines that could be classified as western and the set of disciplines that could be classified as English have fundamentally different standards for ground manners. It presumes that all western disciplines share some philosophy or methods w.r.t. ground manners that are not shared by any English disciplines, or vice versa. It presumes that variation at the discipline or style level w.r.t. handling/training is more predictive of ground manners than individual-level variation in handling/training. It presumes that the outcomes of English and western ground manners training approaches are, to some extent, predictably different.
The evidence I’ve observed in my equestrian life just doesn’t support the premise.
I don’t believe in sacking out. And I’m a 5’2", 115 lbs woman who has owned pulling horses that are so big that they make grown men curl up in the corner in a fetal position. My guys know I’m their ride-or die-human. And they’re always safe asking me what to do when they’re afraid because I will act in their best interests and help them. I’ve never had a need to address any individual fear stimulus as a result.
OP if I had a multi-million dollar horse like the ones featured in “behind the stall door” I would tolerate the lack ground manners too. Poor example.
That being said, as an English rider, I didn’t receive much ground work training beyond what is acceptable behavior of a horse while grooming, tacking, leading etc. In my late teens and beyond I have learned more and more about ground work to be able to successfully ride and train a variety of horses. My current horse walks off from the mounting block as soon as I start swinging my leg over. Is it good? Well for us it is. She will dump me if I force the issue. She’s done it, that is how I know. That pretty much is the only thing “bad” she does. I can mount from anywhere, both sides, leads like a champ, no pawing, no tacking issues. She walks off when mounting. I personally will not pick the battle again. IMO as her only rider, it’s not worth it.
Anecdotally, Joe Camarillo had a rope horse so ill tempered he had to rope him to catch him in the stall.
I doubt you read the Greg Ward article I posted.
Do you know who Scamper is? His backstory of bucking everyone off if they asked for a right lead?
are you aware that while reining lines emphasize maleability, roping and cutting horse lines emphasize bottom and grit?
You’ll find countless references to ‘businesslike’ rope horses. Horses lacking ‘lovable’ personalities who are still top class athletes. What do you think that means?
@TMares I read the Greg Ward article you posted. Thank you for sharing. Sometimes, some battles are not worth fighting. I’m sure it will go over some heads.
I’m sure people out there have foot perfect horses. My horses have always been quirky. I’ll give them their quirkinesses. It was nice to read about someone who shared the same philosophy as I do that was much more accomplished than myself.
Sigh. Could we not take take things to extremes just to try to prove one’s own self-righteousness? Yeesh.
I did read the Greg Ward article and am not terribly impressed that his horses were difficult to saddle and mount. I know of several individuals who keep their horses, often stallions, penned in 12x12s in order to have that explosiveness. Is that admirable horsemanship? What about advocating for turnout in order to allow a horse to be a horse, if that was his true intent? Obviously a skilled horseman but that doesn’t mean everything he did was admirable.
I think there are many factors that go into good ground manners including owner/rider “want to”, skills, goals, experience, ego, curiosity, and ability (eg. invincible 21 year old versus more breakable 62 y.o.). From this discussion it’s also apparent that the horse’s job and value may play into the owner’s attitude. If the horse is “winning” then more bad behavior may be tolerated. Kind of like celebrities or politicians that can get away with all sorts of stuff that would land us commoners in severe straits.
Anyway, this is an interesting discussion and definitely reminds me of the many varied perspectives. I’m just glad I found the horse who I enjoy and is more than happy to chill either under saddle or in hand.
I wasn’t clear, and that’s on me. I was responding to post #41, where I found this gem:
“There is, without a doubt, a difference in the cultures of the two disciplines. I am trying to understand how that can and/or does influence ground manners”
The op is stereotyping and it’s rooted in…what? I don’t know. Is there any broader slice of horsemanship culture than “English” v “Western”? It’s meaningless, that’s my point.
The whole point of the Greg Ward article is:
-he was a legendary cutting horse trainer.
-he rode them like a dressage horse (back to front)
-his horses were enormously competitive yet routinely had poor ground skills because it was not important to him.
the takeaway is not that it’s admirable.
the takeaway is that this “cultural divide” is a myth.
the OP is asserting that these extremes exist, “without a doubt”. That’s the premise of the whole thread. And some of us are saying “nah.”
I’m learning a lot beyond my anecdotal experiences, thanks everyone for the replies.
TMares, I did miss your article, my apologies. Now that I’ve read it, may I broaden my question? I’m going to struggle to word it.
What comes first - the quirks or the top performance? And, does one influence the other?
As to the buisnesslike comment, that does not equate bad ground manners. I’ve known many horses that are interested in doing their job, and then for you to go away. They aren’t “lovey dovey,” nor do they enjoy being fussed over.
Above question, again… why allow lack of ground manners in million dollar horses? Does the lack of ground manners enhance performance? Do top performers have a mind that isn’t conducive to good behavior? These horses are handled a lot, so it certainly isn’t for lack of time.
Worded in a different way - if you wouldn’t tolerate it in a $5,000 horse, why is it tolerated in a big bucks horse?
I’m not trying to be inflammatory, before anyone says that again. I’m speaking from my admitted anecdotal evidence, and trying to learn where/why behaviors are tolerated.
Since they name names in those articles, why not go directly to the ones that you feel tolerate bad behavior? Maybe they don’t feel like it’s bad behavior, which is why it’s tolerated. Dragging someone over to eat grass - annoying, pushy, yeah. Bad? Maybe not. Rearing, bucking, bolting, kicking, biting, yes I’d call that bad.
I’m going to go way out on a limb here and state that the vast majority of us don’t have million dollar horses of any variety. Or trust funds. Even if we buy a horse with the intention of it being a forever horse, there is always a chance that misfortune names us, and we have to find the horse a new home. If the horse is well mannered and safe, has solid basic training, and can cope with life in general, it will be much much easier to find the horse a good home than if the horse has “quirks” that we’ve tolerated. I raised 3 kids and had horses and ponies come and go pretty regularly as they grew up, and every single one of them (horses, not kids) sold like hotcakes because I could honestly advertise that the horse was very well mannered on the ground and under saddle. I occasionally run into them when I’m out and about, and have been able to keep track of most of them (both horses and kids). It’s wonderful to see and hear how well loved the horse is. Good manners is a gift I gave the horse that goes a long way to secure a future with a loving owner for that horse.
Because the big bucks horse has enough talent to be worth the trouble, so it’s allowed a few quirks. Kind of like why rock stars and movie stars and human pro athletes get away with things the rest of us don’t. They also don’t live at your local boarding stable where 13 year old kids are working off their lessons and horses are led six at a time or let run loose in and out of the barn and there are always kids and dogs underfoot.
And yes, to a certain degree I do think temperament goes along with talent. Horses that are super easy and pleasant and get along with everyone rarely seem to be at the top of any discipline. They need to be brave and tough and think for themselves, and even if you can train that out of them, you don’t want to.
I wish I could remember where I read it but it was an article about Bob Baffert and Arrogate, he described how quirky the horse was and how they babied him to keep him happy, things like feeding him treats when he was out on the track in the mornings , tolerating a lot of not so great behavior so he would not sulk , they felt this was the best way to get him to give his all when he raced.
Yes, your observation is very cogent. But, as most folks learn, every horse has their “Monday,” that thing that somehow is an insurmountable issue. When that happens you have to address it and you may have to move outside your normal range of options.
In all of this, as in so many things where you have a very broad generalization with so many possible exceptions that the generalization, itself, is suspect you end up with the “12 Blind Men and The Elephant” problem. Too many folks get wrapped up in one philosophy or approach and allow that approach to become not only the the only correct way, they elevate to the status of the only possible way. When that happens people hit walls. Hitting a wall, particularly at speed, is a Very Bad Thing.
The term “sacking out” is one that can have a variety of meanings, depending on who is using it and in the context in which it is used. So I’d be slow to “condemn” it before I knew exactly what was being suggested.
better to believe Heartland than the reality.