Not so. If you want to make this criticism of me, you will have to substantiate your claims with quotes showing where I do that.
I do think that, on this English board, I end up explaining what I have seen in Western world and correcting the rather disparaging mis-impressions that people trot out here. I’m not an expert on All Things Western. But I will report on my own experience learning from some of those trainers.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-the-stall-door-with-dicas
“play bites” ankles.
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-the-stall-door-with-arctic-soul
touch him anywhere but his face and he will try to bite you
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-the-stall-door-with-private-practice
nicknamed bull because he drags you wherever he wants
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-the-stall-door-with-deniro-z
too cheeky to be led around if fresh (“the girls won’t lead him around” - these are experienced grooms, I’d imagine, so the misbehavior can be assumed to be pretty severe…)
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-the-stall-door-with-cuba
will bite you for food, “does whatever he wants”
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-the-stall-door-with-anna-bella
“will plow you over to get into the stall,” getting studs in takes three people, doesn’t longe, “Oh she’s going to bite my head off” description
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-stall-door-fine-lady
drags people around
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-stall-door-high-times
can hardly touch face, takes an hour to get fuzzy shipping halter on
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-stall-door-firestone-s
allowed to rear and play in hand
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-stall-door-chamonix
“most of the time, she tries to bite me”
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-stall-door-icabad-crane
kicks and bites
http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/behind-stall-door-fernhill-cubalawn
drags you, food aggressive
etc. etc. etc.
I note that many articles claim that the quirks are what make the horse such a good competitor. My main question is why do ground manner quirks make a good competitor? What about allowing a horse “a little more rein” on the ground translates to a better athlete?
I can understand allowing some under saddle quirks, to a degree. But horses who rear are taught not to. Horses who buck are taught not to. So some of their personality traits are inhibited while others are allowed.
How are those personality traits chosen?
Reiners are bred to be compliant and super malleable.
Cutters are bred to be independent thinkers, bold, aggressive, and 100% locked on.
Eventers will tell you that when Dressage scores became more important, the horse’s boldness on x country suffered.
A show jumper must believe she can clear any fence set before her, she has to think that way.
think about what makes the above scenarios true, OP.
OP it comes down to how much is it going to take to train it out of the horse. Everything else the horse does performance wise, negates bad behavior on the ground sometimes. I don’t think the traits are chosen so much as more common in the UL horses.
Also, how big of an argument is it going to be to train the horse out of whatever behavior it is. I gave an example of this of why I let my horse walk off from the mounting block. It’s not worth the argument. For someone else it might be something they want her to do.
My mare also hates having her left ear touched. Her previous owner wouldn’t put anything on over her head except the bridle. Halters, reins, etc were all unbuckled. It wasn’t worth it for her to train the reaction out of her. It was for me so I worked on it and now she’s fine.
I do not think there is a cultural difference between disciplines. I do think there is a stereotype about Western trainers as you can see here on the boards people suggesting going to a “Western trainer” to fix behavioral issues - and “Western” is specified, not “find a trainer that is good with X”.
There is most definitely a difference in people, though!
A friend had a horse from some famous ranch in TX, where the philosophy was if the horse didn’t try to buck you off for the first 5 minutes of a ride, it wasn’t good enough for ranch work - didn’t have the endurance.
I work with horses coming off the track and can tell you there is very much a difference between racehorse breakers. Any horse my trainer starts can come off the track and go into a hack class the next day, maybe jump an easy crossrail course by nature of it’s understanding that the rider is in charge and the rider would not do it harm. Other racehorse breakers only care that you can get on and run in a straight line - these are generally outfits that churn out racehorses quickly. They come off the track and don’t know rein steering, forget about leg, they are all lost and confused about life.
Having been in both the English and Western world a the lower levels, I can definitely tell you there that it is very much trainer/rider/owner specific.
That’s backward—the quirks don’t make a horse a great competitor, except that a tough, take-no-prisoners attitude is common among great competitors in every species (humans, dogs, horses, etc.).
If you have a supremely talented horse that’s winning everywhere and bringing in buckets of prize money and kept at a busy training/showing barn, why would you waste the manpower, time and patience/safety of the horse by drilling this superstar over and over to refrain from pawing in the wash stall? You wouldn’t.
Everyone has a ground-manners hill they’re willing to die on, but for the other stuff? You have to pick your battles, and as someone else pointed out, when you’re a superstar the rules don’t always apply to you.
upper level horses need to be reactive, high energy and smart to do the job, they are not submissive horses, so you pick your battles. My high energy types are expected to stand quietly for the farrier - it is a safety issue so I enforce it. On the way to the paddock on a frosty fall morning, if they want to play on the end of the lead rope, i am not getting into a fight with them as long as they stay out of my space - make them suppress the energy totally they are more likely to explode than if you give them a trickle it out option.
I’m not the first to point it out, of course, but so much of this has to do with the job any given horse has to do, right? (I’m in the H/J world.) To take the example of moving off while being mounted - a beginner lesson horse doesn’t do it because part of the job is taking care of beginners. An international performer does not need to take care of beginners - they need to win, and there are a lot of other things to stay on top of regarding training and fitness and mental management that are a lot more “important” than standing while mounting. I was specifically taught the skill of mounting a new/unknown horse expecting it to move off, and often requesting the horse to move off, because you don’t know which ones are cold backed, and it’s a different rider safety issue than a beginner lesson horse not moving off without its beginner rider.
Perhaps a way of explaining why one stereotypical culture is different than another stereotypical culture is that the respective markets simply don’t demand or value the same things. If every arena-specific discipline demanded that the same skills be installed as every open-range discipline, they would be. But the markets prioritize differently. Different philosophies, preferences, or holdovers from an earlier eta, not objective requirements. It’s simply not necessary for every horse in the world to tie to the side of the trailer when standing on the trailer instead works for their job. It’s a convenience, not a requirement, for many disciplines.
Don’t make the mistake of conflating dangerous bad behavior such as biting, kicking, or rearing with annoying behavior such as walking a step behind the handler or pinning their ears when grooming the girth area. I was a pro H/J show groom and can honestly say that it did not matter if the fancy 3’6" hunter walked a step behind my shoulder coming in from turnout. They weren’t dragging behind, they weren’t stepping on my heels, they just. . . walked a step behind. But any dangerous behavior made a horse harder to sell (to the vast majority of the market) as well as being a safety issue for workers and clients, and it was addressed as such.
Also don’t make the mistake of conflating the elite 1% of the international competition horses like those profiled in COTH (an English-focused publication) with the vast majority of professional and amateur programs out there. They are not representative of anything but themselves, and they are in a rarefied and high-level world. If they were truly a danger to those who own or handle them, it would be addressed. Otherwise, not the priority.
Tact and common sense pretty much covers the requisite ‘normal’ range of options.
I’m not totally clear on why you’re caught up trying to make a distinction between standing on the trailer versus tying to the trailer, OP. I ride English and can say that i see people doing both in equal numbers at shows. Even at Upperville. My trainer (an eventer) talks about how they will hack along the bridle paths in Wellington to get to the show grounds from home.
I agree that there is presidence in western for teaching the horse to tie out in various situations that doesn’t exist in English. That’s simply a function of kind of work the horse is used for. I have friends that work their large (500 head) herd of cattle off horses. During calving season, the horses are tacked and ready to rock basically 24/7. They may ride 8 hours in a day and stop in the middle of the open range. Of course they need their horse to ground tie. OTOH, my horses need to know how to jump to get from field to field, cross water without freaking out, and be accepting of loud noises like air brakes and motorcycles, dogs barking, and loudspeakers. All of my horses except for the pulling horses know how to single tie or crosstie. I could teach them to ground tie, but I only encounter a situation where that would be useful like once in 5 years.
As for tolerating quirks? Why not, unless it’s a quirk that is dangerous or deterimental to their job? Everyone needs a little leeway in life. Just like I don’t micromanage my team at work on how the job gets done as long as the job gets done. Or ride my kids for every little thing. One of my bosses is a micromanager/my-way-or-the-highway type. It’s amazing how much negative energy she causes in a large store with 50 employees there. And as soon as she leaves, the mood lifts, and the real work gets done.
Yes, most FEI level horses will behave differently than the Dobbin at your local riding school. They’re the top 1% . They do jobs that only 1% of horses have the capability to do. Only 1% of riders can ride such a horse. They’re kept in barns where people have the knowledge to support the incredible care required to keep that horse sound and successful at that insanely high level.
It’s the same with extremely talented people. Parents coming into the music studio I managed used to get upset and insist that the teacher had to be the most accomplished concert pianist to teach little Johnny. To which I always smiled and asked them if they would’ve been comfortable with Van Cliburn teaching their child. They always said no. Just like I would not have picked Sapphire for my 11yo to learn to jump on. Limitless talent and quiet temperament rarely go hand in hand in humans or horses.
Don’t confuse a critique on the culture with a personal attack.
I think I am the only person who mentioned that, actually, and solely as a 'somethings are ‘sorta’ English while others are ‘sorta’ western. That’s all and I was clear those weren’t ‘rules’ or givens.
We’re giving her enough feedback w/out handing it out about things she didn’t say 
I’ve seen plenty of horses with bad ground manners over the years. The owners of these horses have things in common but there were just as many of them that rode western as english. They were the same people who owned ill mannered dogs or had bratty children.
Still missing from many posts is commentary on the horse’s frame of mind. To get the performance needed out of a racehorse or open jumper or eventer or barrel horse etc you need reactivity and responsiveness, and that is trained into the horse. Some disciplines need a horse that really jumps off your leg, and that is what the trainers train for (yes, racing is a bit different). This type of training does put the horse into a more alert state, and if the trainer does nothing to relax the horse back down mentally, some horse stay there in that more alert state mentally. This can translate into a horse that is more focused on the environment than the people handling the horse, or a horse that physically reacts to things that it technically should not react to.
Most people want a horse that moves forward off the leg but is soft in the hand. Horses don’t understand that, so we are almost perpetually in a state of working on both aspects, trying to hit that perfect sweet spot. Sometimes they get too forward and you have to soften them up, sometimes they get a bit dull and you have to wake them up. Some horses are naturally more forward or naturally more dull. What people are calling “quirks” are usually the result of failing to understand how to extinguish the behavior, or leaving the horse in a mental state (usually anxious) that causes the unwanted behavior.
As one prior poster stated, there is no reason you should not be able to handle a horse’s ear. It’s simple, humane, persistent training.
Oh, look- a western horses that doesn’t stand quietly
https://www.facebook.com/LandlineABC/videos/vb.105735272820062/309485223091639/?type=2&theater
That is an excellent horse!
I would distinguish between a hot horse and one with poor ground manners.
Just the other day I was watching s clueless lesson kid trying to handwalk a lesson horse on his day off. Big lazy draft cross. He was pulling her all over the place.
On the other hand I know hotter horses that will prance and snort in hand on a brisk day but actually contain themselves and not knock over their handlers.
A bunch of this obviously is also skill of handler.
On the other hand, consistent handling by reasonably skilled people can establish ground manners in the course of things without the huge production that the ground work clinicians make. Those clinics are for the humans to learn feel and timing. That takes much longer than teaching your average green horse to back up from hand cues and stand on a tarp or circus box.
THAT is a horse who knows where the carrots and grain come from!
You know, every time someone pastes a FB link here, it just takes me to my own feed. Not the posted link.
Ditto…nothing truer has been said until this.
By submitting your email, you agree to our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy. You may also receive promotional emails from The Chronicle of the Horse. You can opt out at any time.
For Customers
Company
Terms of Use
