Groundwork styles

[Scribbler]

I love when they invent something to be hyper correct. Like not just back up while I pour the mash, but actually look the other way. Maresy will tilt her head slightly to make it even easier to do up the rope halter if she really wants to come in or out. I love seeing these tiny inventions that show they are really trying to extrapolate good behavior.

[SuzieQNutter]

@J-Lu

Thanks! Gates, to me, test horse responsiveness, side-pass, changing direction around your hand, and side-pass. My horse and I have learned to work gates. I have never heard of a horse disemboweling themselves opening and closing a gate, but I know that some skill is involved in doing it correctly. A horse and rider has to learn what this skill is about. Beginners can’t be expected to know this skill.

I meant to say that it usually happens when being led through a gate that is not fully open. I wasn’t really talking about a rider on horseback.

[SuzieQNutter]

Hubby is in Hospital.

Dodge has told me that hubby let’s him eat the barley out of the saucepan or carrot out of his hand while walking from the kitchen to the laundry outside of the house with the barley or carrots.

The first time I did that walk he took barley out of the saucepan with me saying no and growling. Talk about rude. I was taken by surprise as Dodge is really quite mellow and not rude at all.

After that I was ready for him. He now only nickers for it, however I am totally immune. He is not allowed to have his hooves on the concrete outside the laundry while I am making the feeds.

The last time before last I took the carrots, so nickering that was ignored and while I was in the laundry head and neck stretched and muzzle on my shoulder. I immediately waggled my finger back and forth and said back. I had to do it a second time, the third time I was putting water in the feeds with the laundry hose when he stepped on it again. I said back and sprayed the water in his face.

Now he calmly continues to graze away from the laundry while I make the feeds.

[Caol_Ila]

@Sparrowette

I have Saddlebreds, and the heads go way up with them, just like Friesians. Believe me, they can bring their heads down. It won’t be exactly like a QH heads-down look, but they CAN do it.

I have a friend who owns a Friesian. We were riding together one day, and my Highland was happy and relaxed, trundling along the trail with his head roughly level with his withers. Friend asked, “Is it normal for him to hold his head that low?”

Um, yes.

[arbeegirl]

I like to work with Greg Eliel. I have learned so much to help my past horse and my current horse. Greg wants them to work from behind while being soft in you hand. The horse should also be supple laterally as well.

Everything I have done on the ground makes my horse better under saddle. My current horse really benefits from ground work when he’s having an A.D.D. day. I don’t need to do much but it seems to reset his brain. He’s an OTTB who tends to be tight in his shoulders so I focus on shoulder movements to help loosen him I do notice the difference. My other horse was lazy behind so I did more to engage the hind legs.

It takes practice. I go to the clinics to participate and/or audit. I ask questions. I am not afraid to ask Greg to show me how to do something. I find him to be a great teacher.

I saw a lot of discussion about gates and stall doors. There is this great exercise Greg has us do with walking the horse through two barrels. It will improve going through any space with your horse.

[danhelm441]

@jvanrens

My appendix QH used to always tried to face me when I asked her to stop. It was hard to keep her from doing it, and it was nothing she was ever encouraged to do.

Mine was such a jerk at the mounting block, we spent forever training him to circle and park so you could get on. Clicker training did the trick! But anyway now on the lunge, when you try to halt him, he’ll amble over, make a tight left circle around you, and only come to a stop when he’s parked in position for you to get on

[quietann]

@arbeegirl

I like to work with Greg Eliel. I have learned so much to help my past horse and my current horse. Greg wants them to work from behind while being soft in you hand. The horse should also be supple laterally as well.

Another Greg fan here, although it’s been at least 6 years since I’ve done a clinic with him. He’d be sad that I never really figured out 100% for good getting my mare loading and unloading from the trailer calmly, although for anything in the past year or two, I’d say that backing out of a trailer causes her enough pain that she doesn’t want to go on. (And that’s fine; she’s retired and boarded, and BO knows she’s on a no-code WRT transporting for emergency surgery.) The two barrels were also a challenge.

Anyway, thanks to everyone on this thread. By New England dressage barn standards, my mare has excellent ground manners, in that she won’t try to go over the top of you, doesn’t need a chain, doesn’t kick or bite people, and it’s easy to keep her attention most of the time.

BUT she can be a b*itch with her shoulder at times. And thanks to reading this thread, I rediscovered the correct way (in her mind) to get her to move sideways away from me. I’m way more relaxed, leading her on a longer, slack rope, etc. Working on head down again and we will get there even at this stage in her life.

[SuzieQNutter]

[quote=“quietann, post:108, topic:781926, full:true”]

@arbeegirl

BUT she can be a b*itch with her shoulder at times. And thanks to reading this thread, I rediscovered the correct way (in her mind) to get her to move sideways away from me. I’m way more relaxed, leading her on a longer, slack rope, etc. Working on head down again and we will get there even at this stage in her life.

You can have a slack shorter rein. I am not saying yours is too long, however for others reading, the lead rope can be too long. A longer rein if they play and kick out, you can be kicked. My stepfather never learned and had his femur broken twice by 2 different horses several years apart.

The English way is to lead at the shoulder, if something untoward does happen and they push you away with the shoulder you are then out of danger.

I was very lucky at a work place leading a mare back to the paddock and I was at her shoulder. She tried to throw herself down on top of me. Because of where I was leading her she actually pushed me over and landed beside me. I got her up and through the gate and let her go.

The bully manager came over and started going off because I hadn’t put her rug on. I said I let her go as she tried to throw herself on top of me. The way she immediately shut up and left, I knew this was not the first time she had tried it and I was not told.

A longer rein and the horse is behind you, they can trip and fall on you as they are out of your sight.

Next to you they can charge away and then their hind quarters are towards you, they can rear and be above you.

Mine usually do not have a hater on and walk beside me, not behind or in front of me. With a halter on they are beside me, the lead is loose but not long.

Another time it was good I was at the shoulder and had a shorter rein, as my youngster came through a gate, he wanted to play with the horse near and reared up to jump on him to play.

I was able to pull him back and down off the other horse without having to gather a longer rein first. I said no and halt. He stood and he was praised.

I can not emphasise enough how much praise should be used in training.

[mvp]

[quote=“SuzieQNutter, post:109, topic:781926, full:true”]

@quietann

@arbeegirl

BUT she can be a b*itch with her shoulder at times. And thanks to reading this thread, I rediscovered the correct way (in her mind) to get her to move sideways away from me. I’m way more relaxed, leading her on a longer, slack rope, etc. Working on head down again and we will get there even at this stage in her life.

You can have a slack shorter rein. I am not saying yours is too long, however for others reading, the lead rope can be too long. A longer rein if they play and kick out, you can be kicked. My stepfather never learned and had his femur broken twice by 2 different horses several years apart.

The English way is to lead at the shoulder, if something untoward does happen and they push you away with the shoulder you are then out of danger.

I was very lucky at a work place leading a mare back to the paddock and I was at her shoulder. She tried to throw herself down on top of me. Because of where I was leading her she actually pushed me over and landed beside me. I got her up and through the gate and let her go.

The bully manager came over and started going off because I hadn’t put her rug on. I said I let her go as she tried to throw herself on top of me. The way she immediately shut up and left, I knew this was not the first time she had tried it and I was not told.

A longer rein and the horse is behind you, they can trip and fall on you as they are out of your sight.

Next to you they can charge away and then their hind quarters are towards you, they can rear and be above you.

Mine usually do not have a hater on and walk beside me, not behind or in front of me. With a halter on they are beside me, the lead is loose but not long.

Another time it was good I was at the shoulder and had a shorter rein, as my youngster came through a gate, he wanted to play with the horse near and reared up to jump on him to play.

I was able to pull him back and down off the other horse without having to gather a longer rein first. I said no and halt. He stood and he was praised.

I can not emphasise enough how much praise should be used in training.

A huge component of good groundwork (and perhaps good horsemanship) is to have a horse so mentally with you, and you so mentally with the horse, that there’s no amount of playing or spooking that results in the horse coming into your bubble of personal space. I know one should never say never, but you’d be surprised how few people are exacting enough and consistent enough with this bit of training on the ground. And you’d be surprised how safe and pleasant things can be if horses (and people) are held to this high of a standard.

IME, people require less of horses on the ground in English World than they do in Western World. That’s somewhere between too bad, unnecessary and unsafe. I can count on one hand the number of times I have ever been hurt on the ground by a horse this way in my 45 years of horsing. I can tell you that in each of those times, that horse’s mind was “gone” from me and that they were already quite reactive well before one of their body parts made contact with mine. Lots of that was luck and some good, basic advice that horses need to be taught to be pretty polite on the ground until, perhaps 10 years ago, I learned from some good Western horseman a level of training on the ground I hadn’t known before. I’d no sooner go back to what I was doing before than I would abandon the goal of ever-improving riding.

IME, there’s a lot of badly-done ground work out there, much of it on video. I’m not sure there is quite as much really elegant, soft good ground work around, but you can recognize it if you already have the benefit of some education. Don’t mistake any ground work done badly for the best of what that style can do.

I think that tippy-top horsemen in English and Western disciplines actually want the same things, both in their horses’ education, posture and balance. I think they don’t do anything on the ground that does have a pay-off for people, either in the sense that it makes the horse more tractable or thoughtful and attentive to his handler, or in the sense that it relates to work under saddle.

What I see English (and perhaps Dressagers especially) is really misunderstanding how Western World views lightness in the hand, first as it relates to things on the ground and then to the philosophy of bitting (these are profoundly different between, say, the Dutch-German way of getting a horse to Grand Prix) and the Vaquero way of making up a bridle horse. But I do think that both high-end groups re-converge in the sense of the uphill posture they’d like their horses to hold, and those horses’ incredible rideability.

If you find yourself thinking some kind of ground work is bad, you might want to ask yourself if you are just seeing a shitty version of it, or if you know enough about the rest of that discipline’s training philosophy to judge.

[Alterration]

@mvp

IME, people require less of horses on the ground in English World than they do in Western World. That’s somewhere between too bad, unnecessary and unsafe. I can count on one hand the number of times I have ever been hurt on the ground by a horse this way in my 45 years of horsing. I can tell you that in each of those times, that horse’s mind was “gone” from me and that they were already quite reactive well before one of their body parts made contact with mine. Lots of that was luck and some good, basic advice that horses need to be taught to be pretty polite on the ground until, perhaps 10 years ago, I learned from some good Western horseman a level of training on the ground I hadn’t known before. I’d no sooner go back to what I was doing before than I would abandon the goal of ever-improving riding.

This is exactly my feeling.

I had the epiphany watching BB the other day that most people look at the flags, the waving or wiggling ropes, and they see that as “directing” the horse. They don’t realize that those are the backups for a horse that has missed the cue. The real signal to the horse is moving your hand.

That’s lightness.

Signal vs contact would be a fascinating discussion but I don’t know where to have it.

[quietann]

I don’t leave the lead rope really long, just have enough slack that we aren’t tugging on each other, so if she starts tugging on me (grass can do this!) I know right away. Also keep the bight of the rope gently looped in my hand and reel her in/reel her out as necessary.

I normally lead her with her head next to me, but on a narrow trail have the verbal command “follow” which she understands to mean get behind me. How far behind is still a work in progress.

(I use a lot of verbal commands. I’m no expert, just figuring out what works for us. And yes, I user +R, which is generally frowned upon in NH circles, but have seen others get great results.)

The rope-handling is not super easy for me because I have one hand that just doesn’t work very well. A heavy yacht cord lead rope helps with grip, but can be un-subtle. I am working on being lighter.

Really everything we do is a work in progress. I take her for walks and she seems to enjoy it. This is from yesterday; we were checking out a trail that may be extended to reach a second trail, which would turn one of our out-and-back walks from the barn into a loop.

[Alterration]

@SuzieQNutter

The English way is to lead at the shoulder, if something untoward does happen and they push you away with the shoulder you are then out of danger.

I was very lucky at a work place leading a mare back to the paddock and I was at her shoulder. She tried to throw herself down on top of me. Because of where I was leading her she actually pushed me over and landed beside me. I got her up and through the gate and let her go.

The bully manager came over and started going off because I hadn’t put her rug on. I said I let her go as she tried to throw herself on top of me. The way she immediately shut up and left, I knew this was not the first time she had tried it and I was not told.

A longer rein and the horse is behind you, they can trip and fall on you as they are out of your sight.

Or they plumb run over you with the shoulder. I’ve never had one “knock me out of the way” in a way that didn’t mean I was on the ground or very close to such. And then they are right on top of you anyway. I was taught to lead this way and got creamed a number of times, as well as got stomped on. Maybe those army men are quicker with their feet than I am. I’m also not sure how well some of the taller ones can see you in that close to the shoulder.

I finally learned and now prefer the western way. I like the horse well out of my space, and behind me a fair amount, plus slightly to the right. I keep them in my peripheral. Hard to explain. Following me but not driving me - and you do have to make sure that the bold ones understand that, and I do that by keeping my bubble large.

Interestingly, this causes even the “jiggy pull you” types to relax. We had one here that would spook through every doorway. Now, with him managing his own space, he walks calmly with his head down. He’ll still drag someone if they insist on walking at his head or his shoulder. He particularly enjoys spinning around those people like a top. I back him out into his space, his head comes down, and he walks like a lamb.

If they do spook straight forward, I’ve got enough time to get out of the way and most of them will do their best to avoid me. If they do spook they spook around my bubble. My bubble is VERY big and I maintain that closely when leading. A step into the bubble means a big step back from them.

[mvp]

@Alterration

@mvp

IME, people require less of horses on the ground in English World than they do in Western World. That’s somewhere between too bad, unnecessary and unsafe. I can count on one hand the number of times I have ever been hurt on the ground by a horse this way in my 45 years of horsing. I can tell you that in each of those times, that horse’s mind was “gone” from me and that they were already quite reactive well before one of their body parts made contact with mine. Lots of that was luck and some good, basic advice that horses need to be taught to be pretty polite on the ground until, perhaps 10 years ago, I learned from some good Western horseman a level of training on the ground I hadn’t known before. I’d no sooner go back to what I was doing before than I would abandon the goal of ever-improving riding.

This is exactly my feeling.

I had the epiphany watching BB the other day that most people look at the flags, the waving or wiggling ropes, and they see that as “directing” the horse. They don’t realize that those are the backups for a horse that has missed the cue. The real signal to the horse is moving your hand.

That’s lightness.

Signal vs contact would be a fascinating discussion but I don’t know where to have it.

Yes to all you say.

My horse will come to attention and be ready to move, or know she should stay parked based on whether I raise or lower my hand. The social contract we have is that she will never have to feel me on the end of the rope if she takes responsibility for watching me and feeling what the weight of the yacht rope is telling her about where I’d like the front of her personal bubble or her head to be. She is an extremely sensitive horse who really doesn’t want her body touched except as she directs (or discovers that she likes it), so deal works out great for both of us. But the kind of training that gives her a say in how hard or soft I touch her is what makes it worth paying attention to my subtle cues.

I think most horses can be made this attentive, but lots and lots of them have been made dull and accepting by loud, unpredictable handling. It’s akin to learned helplessness from a kind and tolerant animal. I will say that my gelding, who is both unambitious and a tad insecure, has a harder time remembering that he’s got to be so “on his game” all the time. He needs more reminders, though I am hoping that some day he gets as good as my mare.

I’m not expert nor well-trained with the flag. Sometimes, when watching clinics, I think people are being really, really “loud” with the flag. If the goal is to desensitize a pretty green horse or to really get after a horse who thought he could ignore a softer signal (or two), I get it. But I don’t think one horse should require too much whipping of the flag around… and I seem to hear lots of that in a ring full of people.

I could be wrong, but for anything other than purposely creating a loud stimulus that you’d also like to teach the horse to ignore, I think of the flag as an extension of the bight of the rope I’d normally use. So that flag should get slower and move less if I’m doing my training right, I would assume. But my practice and education has mainly been with a 14’ yacht rope tied to a rope halter. So between that and how I use my body and position, I can get pretty “loud” with a horse as need by and send him scurrying it a bit.

If I were doing this all day and were better at handling that long rope with one hand, I think I could come to appreciate the flag. It would let me extend my reach faster and easier than would be possible with just a rope.

Along the other topic of bitting and training, I am always looking for people who understand the signal vs. contact philosophy of bitting. My confession is that even with a snaffle, I always ride a horse with the sense of teaching him/her a consistent, softest-possible set of signals. I think I’m not a deeply-educated enough dressage rider to understand how/why such unwavering contact with the rider’s (imperfect) hand is something a horse would want. I mean to ask people who know, but it is a question that makes dressagers defensive, it seems.

[Alterration]

I was so excited to read this! I was going to quote pieces but then I was like - nope, I’ll just reply to the whole thing.

I have a few horses that I use the flag with, and a few horses that I don’t. I use the flag with those that I feel like need the visual - those who are used to tuning out the humans - but otherwise I also use the bight of the lead. I also use the flag on one who is dead quiet but HATED the flag. He is an odd bird though - ex-wp horse that you could beat with the end of the popper (not that I’d beat him - but you know what I mean) and he’d barely move. I think he went “inward” and the flag brings the real “him” out - and the real him can be very exciting. So we’ve been using it to break patterns. Interestingly, he’s not a spooky guy but that flag really gets him.

The idea I think is that you use the hand/body language and don’t have to get to the flag/bight. If I have to get to the bight or flag after I’ve worked one for awhile it usually means that I’m out of position and don’t want to have them get confused. Getting out of position is so easy (for instance, being late on changing hands). As a mere mortal, I’m still working on this.

Contact for me is such a tricky thing. When I first started riding, I rode bareback a flat halter with two lead ropes as reins. Signal was the only thing I had - you can’t really ride in a flat halter on contact in any measurable sense and ever hope to stop your horse. I did a brief stint in eventing, but then I then went h/j the era of loose floaty reins and nose poking. That was easy and very signal-oriented. I used exercises to slow them down, and even the initial pullers learned to go on a loose rein.

So when I first encountered dressage for real, I kept asking “how much weight do you want in the reins” and my instructor at the time told me a pound per hand…about the weight of a bag of sugar. That’s…a lot of weight on those sensitive tissues. During those lessons I was consistently yelled at for “throwing the horse away” after I had achieved “contact” (I thought I was releasing - but that’s neither here nor there). I’m probably not a very good dressager because clearly I’m missing something. They also wanted me to use those side reins with donuts…those things bounce on the mouth! What the heck?

Anyway, I’m back on the western side of things now. I still use the dressage exercises (shoulder in, leg yields, TOF, TOH, etc. etc.) but seek to do it in a signal sort of manner. Most of the time I think the bridle is just there as “backup” the same way the flag would be. My riding comes from my body and occasionally my voice. My goal is to help my horses learn to carry themselves. I guess that’s the same as upper level dressage, but I don’t understand how carrying them at the lower levels translates to them suddenly getting light at the upper levels.

I’m probably missing it!

[SuzieQNutter]

What a shame your instructor told you that and did not explain about when to give.

If the horse gets heavy and you give you teach the horse to be heavy and lean.

Unfortunately IMHO, the donuts on sidereins do the same thing. The horse pulls, the donut gives, the horse has been taught to pull. Which is very controversial for me to say.

There is another way, the trouble is finding a great instructor.

However you seem to be very happy in Western, so you will excel there.

[Alterration]

@SuzieQNutter

What a shame your instructor told you that and did not explain about when to give.

If the horse gets heavy and you give you teach the horse to be heavy and lean.

Unfortunately IMHO, the donuts on sidereins do the same thing. The horse pulls, the donut gives, the horse has been taught to pull. Which is very controversial for me to say.

There is another way, the trouble is finding a great instructor.

However you seem to be very happy in Western, so you will excel there.

I went through 3 of them who all said similar things before I gave up Perhaps there are some somewhere who aren’t teaching this “heaviness”, but they sure don’t seem to be around my area.

In truth - I’m more comfortable in a western saddle anyway so it’s all good. For some reason even the deep seated Wade-style is more comfortable on my hips. The stirrup bars aren’t set forward or anything, might just be enough leather to keep me up a bit. My horses seem more comfortable too, so we’ll roll that way.

I hate country music though, so that part is tough.

[colorfan]

@Alterration

had the epiphany watching BB the other day that most people look at the flags, the waving or wiggling ropes, and they see that as “directing” the horse. They don’t realize that those are the backups for a horse that has missed the cue. The real signal to the horse is moving your hand.

that’s lightness,

yes totally

[Mersidoats]

@mvp

Along the other topic of bitting and training, I am always looking for people who understand the signal vs. contact philosophy of bitting. My confession is that even with a snaffle, I always ride a horse with the sense of teaching him/her a consistent, softest-possible set of signals. I think I’m not a deeply-educated enough dressage rider to understand how/why such unwavering contact with the rider’s (imperfect) hand is something a horse would want. I mean to ask people who know, but it is a question that makes dressagers defensive, it seems.

I’m a dressage rider who has moved her horses over to western bitting and aims to ride them with the end goal of the bit being a signal bit, vs strong direct contact. We (myself and my horses) have all gotten tired of the strong contact. It is a journey and requires relearning what contact should be. I suck at it most days, and struggle to verbalize it. And boy do you have to use your leg and seat. But I know it when I feel “it”. And “it” is usually from my seat into my hand, and the hand can become light.

I’ll have more thoughts in a year or two, I think.

[Alterration]

Yay! Another one!

[Mondo]

@SuzieQNutter

As I said it happens when the gate is wider at the time before it closes and the horse is in the incorrect place.

You’ve said, “the gate is wider when it’s closing,” three times now. Not any gate I am familiar with. I have no idea what this means, other than it defies the laws of physics. Can you elaborate?