Thank you for your story, crosscreeksh. I am so sorry for your loss, and so grateful that my guy is still here, begging to have his butt scratched as I’m at the computer. I lost one (an indescribably wonderful 8 year old GSP) on the table to liver cancer in 1979, and don’t know that I ever recovered.
Butt-scratching done, we had an intermission here to convince subject doggie that using the new ramp up to our bed is easier than bouncing off my bosu ball. Loving him a lot is easy. It’s getting enough sleep while remaining sufficiently vigilant that’s hard.
[QUOTE=MoonWitch;6164435]
It sounds as if your decision is made and I won’t try to change that. We have to make tough decisions sometimes and we do so with our heart. What I can only give you is my experience.
Ours was different in that she was a beautiful 3yo GS with a lump on her foreleg. Biopsy proved the worst - osteosarcoma. Luckily, it had not gone to her lungs and there was a new drug that was showing promising results. We were lucky to get in on the groundfloor of a double blind study regarding T-104 cells with a vet right in our area. Zelda had the amputation of her left front leg. She recoved rather quickly and she truly taught me the meaning of grace. I watched as she learned to adjust to her new condition and she was amazing. She had such spirit and was an inspiration everywhere we took her.
After her treatment of the chemo and the other drug (5 mos) she had a very happy life…though brief. We had her for another two wonderfuly, healthy, happy years. She had Rimadyl on the bad days but otherwise - nothing.
She went down fast. It was a Sunday afternoon and she was “quiet” for her. By dinner time it was evident that there was something wrong. We took her to the ER vet and they told us her kidneys were shutting down. We let her go in my arms and I loved her to the very end.
No one can make this decision for you. And it’s a burden I don’t envy of you. All I can tell you is that if I had to do it all over again…I would in a heartbeat.
Have peace[/QUOTE]
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I am glad you and your GS had those 2 years. Your story reminded me of what my dog’s chiro/vet said: "maybe if he was 3…’ Over and over, I hear the same story: a horrible disease, only a matter of time. I often think in response something along the lines of “sounds like life to me.” And then I watch my animals, like this GSP, who, despite what must be a painful tumor in his leg, still thrills at the prospect of leaping in to a river after a toy or going for a ride in the car, not to mention gobbling up some boiled chicken skin, and wish I could somehow learn from them to appreciate life. Perhaps it’s a matter of living in the moment. Perhaps it’s because they can love us and life itself without the terror of loss.
I’ve heard on the radio that it’s the “most overused” statement, but WTF, “it is what it is.”
I found a month or so ago this: http://www.caninecancer.com/herbs.html
You may have heard of artemisinin or may not, at least something you can try. Hugs for your dog.
[QUOTE=scossia;6165075]
I found a month or so ago this: http://www.caninecancer.com/herbs.html
You may have heard of artemisinin or may not, at least something you can try. Hugs for your dog.[/QUOTE]
Thank you so much!! Time to contact a holistic vet to help me decide how to administer properly/ avoid adverse interactions.
Count me in as another one who thinks you’ve made a good decision.
I have only a few instances of personal experience and a few more anecdotal, but a dog of his age, with that cancer - I’d wonder if he’d not live long enough to heal up from the amputation.
That cancer is so aggressive, it seems like in most cases it has spread by the time it is discovered.
Thank you for keeping his best interests in mind.
I feel for you. Been through it with my best ever dog, and it sucks. And my sister’s dog. And my friend’s dog. And it is quick.
Just got off the phone with my holistic vet, followed by a rep. at Novartis, which manufactures Artemether (under the name CoArtem), one of the forms of Artemisinin which is supposed to show some promise in treating cancer. The vet wants my dog off the Essiac, which he says he’s tried countless times over the years with poor results: upset tummies with no remissions whatever:( He’s not impressed with the literature on Artemisinin, but at this point sees no reason not to give it a try— along with Fish Oil (capsules, to protect against oxidation), Turmeric, Chinese mushrooms… mostly dietary stuff that pose no threat of interaction.
My dog is much less active today, but the vet said not to worry-- it’s probably because of the very unstable weather. It had been so nice out, and now it’s cold, wet, dreary. Time to go pet the dog.
I have found lots of useful information from a non-conventional approach in : “Preventing and Treating Cancer in Dogs” by Shawn Messionnier.
I have chosen as well not to do surgery or chemo as it just doesn’t fit what I think Gopher could tolerate as this stage of the game. Besides a supportive diet and added supplements I am working with one vet for chiro and accupuncture and TCM especially for bleeding issues. My regular vet has a holistic approach as well and suggested Paw Paw (by Nature’s Sunshine).
I know this cancer will win but right now I am treasuring every day I have with him. He still loves his walkies even though no land speed records are being set, is eating reasonably well enough, can’t get enough belly scratching and back massages and still goes bonkers when I get out the all time favorite treat of Sam’s Yams! It sounds like you too are enjoying the time you have now as is your dog. I am focusing on the quality time I have now rather than the quantity that I might have if he had surgery/chemo.
My thoughts are with you.
Let me just weigh in from the point of view of an ER technician who has seen countless numbers of these over the last 20 years.
most of the osteosarc dogs that we saw on emergency that HAD undergone amputation, were euthanized before the hair grew back from the surgery.
most of the osteosarc dogs that we saw on emergency that HAD NOT undergone amputation were seen for fractures. They tend to be surprising and overwhelmingly painful. It was very, very difficult to deal with owners who were not ready to say goodbye yet and animals whose pain was unable to be controlled with even the strongest narcotics.
There are two cancers that I absolutely will not treat in dogs and Osteosarc is #2.
I have found lots of useful information from a non-conventional approach in : “Preventing and Treating Cancer in Dogs” by Shawn Messionnier.
I have chosen as well not to do surgery or chemo as it just doesn’t fit what I think Gopher could tolerate as this stage of the game. Besides a supportive diet and added supplements I am working with one vet for chiro and accupuncture and TCM especially for bleeding issues. My regular vet has a holistic approach as well and suggested Paw Paw (by Nature’s Sunshine).
I know this cancer will win but right now I am treasuring every day I have with him. He still loves his walkies even though no land speed records are being set, is eating reasonably well enough, can’t get enough belly scratching and back massages and still goes bonkers when I get out the all time favorite treat of Sam’s Yams! It sounds like you too are enjoying the time you have now as is your dog. I am focusing on the quality time I have now rather than the quantity that I might have if he had surgery/chemo.
My thoughts are with you.[/QUOTE]
Read your other thread, and yes, we’re doing the same things with our dogs-- from holistic vet to belly scratches.
Thought you might enjoy knowing that my vet is a real Golden Retriever person: owns them and IMO, looks like one. Greatest dogs ever for sweetness. My vet said cancer is so common in Goldens that whenever he sees a 15 year old Golden (and he has one) he knows he’s looking at cancer.
I just wish my dog were 15 instead of 12-- while knowing I’m lucky this didn’t happen earlier, as it does with so many dogs.
Dogs are so great and love their lives so much. They deserve a great deal more of it.
[QUOTE=Iron Horse Farm;6173474]
Let me just weigh in from the point of view of an ER technician who has seen countless numbers of these over the last 20 years.
most of the osteosarc dogs that we saw on emergency that HAD undergone amputation, were euthanized before the hair grew back from the surgery.
most of the osteosarc dogs that we saw on emergency that HAD NOT undergone amputation were seen for fractures. They tend to be surprising and overwhelmingly painful. It was very, very difficult to deal with owners who were not ready to say goodbye yet and animals whose pain was unable to be controlled with even the strongest narcotics.
There are two cancers that I absolutely will not treat in dogs and Osteosarc is #2.[/QUOTE]
Thank you so much for writing. It’s not light reading, but reinforces my fears and my choice, and should help me care better for my dog.
What’s the #1 cancer you wouldn’t treat?
Having decided against amputation, chemo, and radiation, my greatest fear is pain control-- especially in the all too likely event of a fracture. Is there anything I can keep on hand to help my dog while waiting for the vet?
Also wanted to know if you know of any topicals that can help with joint inflammation and pain (aside from ice). E.g., do you think equine products like Surpass or menthol/eucalyptus/tea tree oil ice gels are likely to help without aggravating anything?
I’m guessing hemangiosarcoma would be the 1st one she wouldn’t treat. Just knowing she is an ER tech she must see a skewd population of cases. She probably sees the ones that were amputated too late and had already meted which is why they present to the ER for euthanasia before the hair has grown back. I have seen many treated with amputation, chemo and radiation where the dogs are happy, hair has grown back, and they are bouncing around. Just so everyone knows, chemotherapy in dogs is not like chemotherapy in people. The goal for chemotherapy in dogs is quality of life first and foremost! These dogs are not sick from their chemo. The goal of chemo is to give it at a low enough dose that it might not kill all of the cancer but it does shrink it, the dogs feel more comfortable, they are eating, they are happy. The way you use herbs and supplements to try and make your dog feel better is the exact same way chemo is used in dogs, to make them feel better and maybe prolong their life. The only difference is chemo is scientifically proven and it is written up in peer reviewed journals. It may be worth a call to a veterinary university with an Oncology department to chat with them about what to expect with chemo, radiation and amputation. At least to educate yourself. I think the UC Davis department might be the best in the country. Its at least worth a quick phone call.
I agree. We had our other GSX die of hemangiosarcoma - so fast - like 48hrs from onset of symptoms. As we learned afterwards - not much to do for treatment
I think the OP is dealing with the age factor of her dog. My GS was only 3 and did recover to have another 2 happy, healthy years with us.
Thank you for posting, fancy pants. I think I might call Davis, although I’m in North Carolina and have already called both the most highly recommended oncologist in my area and the N.C. Vet School. IOW’s, I am doing everything I can think of to educate myself, while, at the same time, trying to avoid subjecting my 12 year old dog from painful and stressful procedures with questionable benefits. E.g., it’s my understanding that 95% of dogs diagnosed with osteosarcoma have already metastasized regardless of whether or not it shows in chest radiographs, and then, as you say, the chemo following amputation in dogs is relatively benign because it’s essentially palliative-- doesn’t attempt to cure the cancer anyway-- just stave it off for awhile-- after an obviously major (and very painful) surgery, following a biopsy which also carries some risk-- all on a dog who’s already stressed just by going to the vets, and has a history of painful spine problems.
If I could get my dog palliative/ maybe life-prolonging chemo without subjecting him to painful procedures (biopsy/amputation) there’s no way he could understand, I would definitely consider it. So far, though, it seems to have been an “either/or” choice: amputation/chemo vs. alternative treatments. Radiation seems to be exclusively palliative, while actually damaging the already fragile bone.
[quote=MoonWitch;6174690]I agree. We had our other GSX die of hemangiosarcoma - so fast - like 48hrs from onset of symptoms. As we learned afterwards - not much to do for treatment
I think the OP is dealing with the age factor of her dog. My GS was only 3 and did recover to have another 2 happy, healthy years with us.
And yes - cancer sucks :mad:
[/quote]
[quote=fish;6174709]Thank you for posting, fancy pants. I think I might call Davis, although I’m in North Carolina and have already called both the most highly recommended oncologist in my area and the N.C. Vet School. IOW’s, I am doing everything I can think of to educate myself, while, at the same time, trying to avoid subjecting my 12 year old dog from painful and stressful procedures with questionable benefits. E.g., it’s my understanding that 95% of dogs diagnosed with osteosarcoma have already metastasized regardless of whether or not it shows in chest radiographs, and then, as you say, the chemo following amputation in dogs is relatively benign because it’s essentially palliative-- doesn’t attempt to cure the cancer anyway-- just stave it off for awhile-- after an obviously major (and very painful) surgery, following a biopsy which also carries some risk-- all on a dog who’s already stressed just by going to the vets, and has a history of painful spine problems.
If I could get my dog palliative/ maybe life-prolonging chemo without subjecting him to painful procedures (biopsy/amputation) there’s no way he could understand, I would definitely consider it. So far, though, it seems to have been an “either/or” choice: amputation/chemo vs. alternative treatments. Radiation seems to be exclusively palliative, while actually damaging the already fragile bone.
Who knows what Davis might tell me, though.
[/quote]
yes, hemangiosarcoma is my #1 cancer not to treat. My 12 yr old Flat Coated Retreiver was diagnosed at the clinic and didn’t even come home that night. It hadn’t ruptured, he wasn’t acutely dying, but it was a huge tumor with mets to the chest and I wasn’t going to let it be an emergency when it did rupture to put him down.
But no, my 13yrs in the ER haven’t skewed my opinion, rather simply enforced them. I spent 2 years at a prestigious specialty hospital that had a huge oncology ward and specialized in limb-sparing procedures - bone grafting and external fixation procedures.
IMHO, the LEAST invasive cancer treatments in dogs are chemo and radiation (and radiation is probably contraindicated in your case FISH, for the reasons that you have provided). Chemo in dogs is rarely stressful and rarely produces the side effects that make human fear it so much. Many of the drugs are available orally and can be given at home if a few simple safety measures are taken.
Good luck with your boy, I truly know what a tough call this is.
Thank you, Holly. Time to write my vet. The part where you write “I wasn’t going to let it be an emergency when it did rupture to put him down.” is what’s haunting me right now. My dog still has an excellent appetite, loves to have his belly rubbed, and jumps up and down (though now more carefully and on only 3 legs) when he sees me getting ready to take him out, but I can’t bear the idea that I’m just waiting for the day when that leg will break, and he’ll have to wait in agony for his final rest.
Hopelessness is the pits.
P.S. I pretty much did the same thing you did in 1979. My eight year old 8 GSP had had sores on his elbows that refused to heal for almost a year. I switched vets and exploratory surgery showed advanced liver cancer. For me, it was a no-brainer to have him put down on the table instead of trying to hang on to him. The pain of recovering from surgery, not to mention dying from cancer, is just not worth it in my book.
Like I said - I DO NOT envy you and I wish there was an easy answer. As you are well aware, there is not.
Only YOU know your dog. But I truly believe that they tell you when that time has come. And, if you have that connection with them, as you obviously do, you get it.
It sounds as thought you’re enjoying your days together, and there is little pain. None of us know when it can happen - healthy or not. Live each day as a gift…
Fish so much sympathy for what your going through. I know when I was dealing with this with my dog, every day I asked myself if I was doing the right thing.
Uma never had a pathological fracture, but the anemia I think is what got her. The cancer just ate her ability to make new red blood cells, and one day I came home from work, and she was done, it was time. Honestly, up until that point, even though she was lame, whe was still happy, bright eyed and enjoying life, so I kept plugging along with her.
I too wasn’t going to do chemo, and surgery wasn’t an option because the tumor was on her rib. (they would have had to crack her chest to operate on it) Drug wise, prior to cancer (she was very arthritic, had hip and elbow dysplasia) she got adequan and legend weekly (she had a hard time tolerating oral meds) derramax, misoprostal ( a GI protectant) and tramadol. After cancer we added in Gabapentin and later, Fentanyl patches. The Gabapentin helped a lot.
Thanks everyone. One day, one hour… at a time. Today’s been ups and downs (well, really the other way around). This morning was not good-- his leg seemed to be bothering him so much that he wasn’t dragging me on the leash and didn’t want to do anything except sleep after breakfast. Apparently the sleep was what he needed. In the afternoon, he was pulling me all over the place-- to the river where he swam some in the beaver dam, then towed me after birds, then to he car, saying clearly as a dog can that although his leg was giving out on him, he still wanted to go places. After our ride, then another walk around the farm, he finally headed for the house, then went straight to work on his bison marrow bone. I’ll have to remember that if he looks down again in the morning. He really didn’t need me to become an emotional wreck just 'cuz he felt the need to rest!
Glad I wrote my vet, though: I would like to be as well armed as possible against an emergency fracture-- and also possibly try chemo at home.
He’s already said Gabapentin will be the next pain med if the rimadyl + tramadol stop working.
