Hmm…I find that strange that so many people have had such short survival times with osteosarcs. I work with a lot of the oncology patients, and know many that have survived 2+ years with treatment of osteosarcomas. But, as with any cancer, each case is so different. I wish you the best of luck with your dog.
[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;6175724]
Hmm…I find that strange that so many people have had such short survival times with osteosarcs. I work with a lot of the oncology patients, and know many that have survived 2+ years with treatment of osteosarcomas. But, as with any cancer, each case is so different. I wish you the best of luck with your dog.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I have as well.
[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;6175724]
Hmm…I find that strange that so many people have had such short survival times with osteosarcs. I work with a lot of the oncology patients, and know many that have survived 2+ years with treatment of osteosarcomas. But, as with any cancer, each case is so different. I wish you the best of luck with your dog.[/QUOTE]
Statistically, the average survival times for dogs undergoing conventional treatment for osteosarcoma are 4-6 months after surgery for dogs with amputation, but no follow-up chemo; 1 year for after surgery for dogs treated with both amputation and chemo. The oncologist was very clear that these are averages, with survival rates all over the continuum for different individuals, and no guarantees of anything for anyone. My guess is (and remains) that large 12 year old dogs who dislike going to the vet’s even for well visits (not to mention having a bit of arthritis and chiropractic issues), are unlikely to be at the happy end of the stats. I’d have a hard time living with myself if I put my dog through major surgery and he didn’t even survive long enough to recover fully from it, or recovered from it only to throw his neck out (again) trying to balance on 3 legs.
Perhaps I’m influenced by my own experiences with major surgeries. I’ve had a lot of them-- none of which I’d wish upon my dog. I’m sure Chemo for dogs is easier than chemo for people, but no one will ever convince me that dogs (or horses, or cats…) feel surgical (or spinal) pain any less than we do.
Sorry Fish - wasnt trying to persuade you to change your mind. I absolutley agree not all dogs are meant for treatment. 
I have one who I would treat in a heartbeat, and the other I wouldnt. She hates going in the car, she would be miserable. The other dog loves going anywhere, is 12 but acts 3. No arthritis or anythinghindering the ability to be 3 legged.
Its all about the individual. Some do very well with treatment, others dont. Some dont get to experience treatment and are better off with that decision.
Im just saying that for those who DO want to treat, I have personally seen lengthy survival times with no side effects to the chemo used for osteosarcomas - compared to something like hemangiosarcoma, or carcinomatosis. Lymphoma and osteosarcomas (if treated) have some of the more lenghty survival times. But, again, each case presents very different and the individual pet’s needs need to be taken into consideration.
Not to worry, Squish. I understood that you were merely expressing surprise that “so many people have had such short survival times with osteosarcs…,” and I was merely suggesting that it’s a matter of statistics which are, in turn, compiled from individual experiences that are really all over the place. Perhaps I should have added the law of chance that says “events cluster”-- i.e., that distributions are far from even. Ultimately I think each of us, including vets and vet techs, tends to come from our own, personal experiences, because those (together with our inherent genetic make up) are the ones that form our own emotions-- not to mention being the ones we are most able to believe because we’ve seen them.
One of my dog’s vets recommended surgery, noting that my dog is in excellent physical condition, and that he himself had amputated a similar dog (10 year old Weimaraner) a few months previously who was doing famously. 2 others said no way-- “maybe if he was 3, but not 12.” The oncologist was completely objective-- he gave me the stats, described the procedures involved, and left me to make my own decision.
Every moment of every day, it’s a tough call.
Just checked this thread…good to hear your boy is hanging in there. How are YOU doing??? Aside from the uncertainty we dealt with…diagnosis came post mortem…my worst part was the sleeplessness/fatigue. I would wake up at night and listen for breathing sounds…then lie awake for hours pondering Ambush’s fate. Hope you are getting more rest. Jingling that your dog beats the “devil” for a long while to come. Jackie
Thanks so much for checking in, Crosscreek. We’re still hanging in there-- although it didn’t help that I got a notice on Thurs. that I’m getting audited by the IRS :(. Yes, the sleep thing is hard. Vets keep saying that without amputation, “pain is the limiting factor,” so I wake up every time my dog moves or makes a sound, fearing that I haven’t given him enough pain meds or maybe gone too long. Meantime, I can’t help but wonder why the pain so obviously involved in cutting off a limb is so often skipped over by those espousing the procedure-- who tend to say*“cut the leg off. The pain will be gone.” Then I read about the surgery and recovery process-- “what to be prepared for,” etc. – on very pro-amputation sites like Tripawds, and can’t imagine putting my dog through that on the chance that I might be able to gain a few (or maybe even a dozen) more months of us together. At this point, my dog still uses his tumorous limb quite a bit, and I notice his good leg twisting and bowing under the added burden, and also becoming sensitive and sore. I cry to think of how he will feel all over when the leg with the tumor becomes too painful to use at all. Guess that’s when we move on to the next level of pain meds.
The more I look and think, the more I think the decisions we make come from our own experiences, views of life, not to mention genetic predispositions toward depression and the like. Personally, I’ve been through enough surgeries + rehabs (and other traumas), that I long ago reached the point where the sight of an anesthesiologist makes me wish that s/he makes the kind of mistake that spares me the agony of waking up again. (I tell them that and they laugh, thinking it’s probably not a coincidence that so many comedians have been depressives).
Meanwhile, I try to be sensitive to and respectful of my dog’s own appetite/enjoyment of his life or loss thereof, and somehow avoid confusing those with either my own insatiable desire for his companionship or my own depressed view that the suffering that comes with life just ain’t worth it.
A couple years ago, one of my favorite veterinarians fell victim to depression and killed herself with the same cocktail her practice used to euthanize patients. Prior to that, she’d been placed on leave for euthanizing patients before their time. I think of that a lot. I also miss her. She was a great vet whose compassion was, perhaps, more than she could bear.
Sorry to go on so long. Take it as a perhaps weird form of “venting,” with me being grateful for the opportunity you’ve given me to do.
I’ve taken my dog off leash because the pain in his leg has limited his tendency to dash off after squirrels, birds, etc. He might lope ahead of me bit, but does not go far, and I feel it’s good to eliminate the stress on his leg that comes from pulling against the leash. Now, too, he can go under logs, into brush, etc., sniffing away, where the leash would not let him go. After our walk, he stuck around as I prepared the garden. He’s always loved leaping after and tearing apart the weeds I threw his way. We did that again this morning, but I worry about how to toss. I don’t want him jumping too high and forgetting to guard that leg. That’s one end of it. The other is that he still enjoys this part of our gardening.
Again,not trying to persuede you to amputate…but, we have dogs go home the day AFTER amputation if its a hindlimb, and 2 days post amputation if its afront limb. They go home on oral tramadol/metacam for 5 days. By the day 7 recheck, All, including the giant old newfie are comfortable, sleeping on either side etc. Amputation for the most part, is less painful than even fixing a cruciate ligament. Again, not trying to persuede you inparticular, but for anyone else thinking about amputations I wouldnt hesitate to do it in a heartbeat in many situations (but not all)
[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;6187355]
Again,not trying to persuede you to amputate…but, we have dogs go home the day AFTER amputation if its a hindlimb, and 2 days post amputation if its afront limb. They go home on oral tramadol/metacam for 5 days. By the day 7 recheck, All, including the giant old newfie are comfortable, sleeping on either side etc. Amputation for the most part, is less painful than even fixing a cruciate ligament. Again, not trying to persuede you inparticular, but for anyone else thinking about amputations I wouldnt hesitate to do it in a heartbeat in many situations (but not all) :)[/QUOTE]
I find this irrelevant. When talking major surgeries, I would always “hesitate” whenever I had the luxury of time in which to make the decision.
FYI, I put my lab through 2 ACL (cruciate ligament) surgeries-- one on each hind leg, one tendon replacement, one joint replacement. Probably/perhaps worth it because my lab did survive to 15 y.o. (ca. 5 years past the 2nd surgery), but certainly very painful procedures with much less than 100% positive results. Bottom line: there’s no way I’d subject my beloved GSP to anything resembling what my lab went through.
I also put one of my horses (a chestnut mare I bred) through 2 colic surgeries. She lived, fully employed and loving life, 6 years past the (truly horrific) 2nd surgery, at which point she succumbed to a sepsis that came out of nowhere.
When I was in hell watching that mare being beaten into recovery from her 2nd surgery/anesthesia, with ca. a 10% chance of recovering at all, my vet told me he’d hang in there if recovery meant a normal quality of life and prospects for full life span afterward. My mare had that. My GSP does not.
And then there’s my own last couple surgeries. I was sent home hours after waking up from surgery involving plates and screws repairing a broken elbow. At 3 a.m., I was at home, alone except for a niece under treatment for cystic fibrosis in no condition to help me, with pain so severe I was tempted to cut off my arm. Two weeks later, I underwent a 2nd surgery for bone infection, followed by 8 weeks on a PICC line. I thought maybe it was worth it until my dog was diagnosed. I’m 67, my dog is 12 and has terminal cancer. My remaining horse is 25. And the IRS is auditing me.
In the midst of all this, I know I’m fortunate: I have a beautiful farm, have had a wonderful life riding amazing horses, raising 2 children to exciting adulthoods, designing a beautiful farm…
I keep coming back to the “golden rule”-- do unto others… somewhat abridged because I know I’m depressed.
Time to go snuggle with my dog.
Yep, which is why I said in most situations. Younger dog with no history of arthritis (osteosarc is often seen in mid age dogs, not older ones) then yes…the chance of a quality year I would do it. Bad fractures that cant heal without pain - yes I would do it. Soft tissue sarcomas, yep…probably if the dog had 3 other good legs. But as you said, you dont feel your dog would do well - and you are the decision maker for him. Sounds like he`s a lucky dog to have you.
Fish, I am so fully with you!
Nobody on this planet knows your dog as well as you do, and who could doubt you are making your decision on what you feel is right for your dog?
I have made the same decision, as I’ve said, with IWs with bone cancer. Your email reminded me of why, in the last case. I had a beloved bitch who was starting to have neuro issues in the rear, and had something going on in the front as well. The osteo was in the rear. There is no way she could have coped with amputation, especially as we have a multi-dog household where she was constantly subjected to bumping. There were vets who tried to talk me into it. As time went on (we did radiation as well as meds for pain control) this became so apparent, I have never regretted not amputating in her case.
There are lots of dogs who do fantasically well with amputation, but not all do, and you are the one who knows for your particular dog. FWIW, I totally agree with your decision in this dog’s case.
I know, it is hard to do the day to day activities and make all the little decisions. Dogs have such courage and optimism, it is hard to appreciate sometimes that we must let them be themselves, while protecting them also. It is indeed a fine line at times.
I feel for you! It is inevitable that I will be in your shoes or similar shoes one day again. I envy you your 12 years with your beloved GSP, there is no possibility I would ever enjoy that.
Take lots of pictures, treasure every moment as I know you do in these hospice days.
Thanks, Houndhill. I am taking lots of pictures-- and what you said to heart.
Yesterday, I let my dog off leash for several hours thinking “we must let them be themselves, while protecting them also.” I’d been afraid he might break the tumorous leg dashing after squirrels, birds, etc., but observed that the pain seemed to have made him careful, while towing me around could not be comfortable and severely cramped his style. Off leash, he was able to wade in the river, sniffing and digging in the wild animal burrows in the banks, hunt around in the underbrush… I also took him with me to the garden and tossed him the weeds to dismember as in the old, pre-cancer days-- though, of course, throwing them neither as high or far. He slept really well last night.
You are so right, too, that my years with this dog are enviable. This whole thing started when I noticed white hairs spreading on his face and suddenly realized that I’d been telling everyone (including myself) for well over 2 years that my dog was 9 years old. GSP’s are all about energy and optimism. This is the 2nd one I’ve had diagnosed with cancer though the vets initially told me (after physical exam, blood tests, urinalysis) that they were in such great shape they could make it to 20. I lost the other one to liver cancer when he was only 8-- when I finally switched (after 8 months of “he’s fine”) to the vet who did exploratory surgery. When a GSP stops jumping 4’ off the ground when you prepare to take him out, it’s time to worry. Makes me wonder what it might be like to have that kind of enthusiasm for life (not to mention that level of fitness and athleticism!).
How are you and your dog doing??? Jackie
Thanks so much for asking, Jackie. We’re still hanging in there, I think a lot like many people with this disease: good days, bad days, within the (so far) gradual decline, while my friends and I continue to try everything in the “can’t hurt” category to keep him going. One friend is doing energy work, including making him a crystal I keep at the entrance to the house, another’s got a prayer circle going. He’s on Artemisinin (Holley Pharmaceuticals), Fish Oil, turmeric, Chinese Mushrooms (CAS), garlic, fresh bison bones…, in addition to the conventional Tramadol and Rimadyl. He still uses the affected leg quite a bit although it’s obviously grown more crooked and weak, and he’s slowed down quite a bit although there are still impressive burst of energy. Most of all, I feel very fortunate that we not only have a farm, but the beaver chose this year to build an enormous pond which could have been custom designed doggie therapy. He might be lame on land, but still swims like a champ, and it’s hard to beat hydrotherapy for an inflamed leg, especially when it’s in the woods, where a bird dog sniffs a feast from the air. His other favorite thing is going for rides in the car (hatchback)-- that feast from the air again.
He’s still in bed now-- more than an hour later than we were accustomed to doing morning horse chores. What the heck? We just changed to daylight savings time anyway, and the boy needs his rest, right?
Through my friends, I’ve learned of several other dogs who recently received the same diagnosis. One, who was diagnosed the day after mine, was put down 2 days ago because, though still happily eating and tail wagging, he could no longer get up. Another, much younger dog, had a front leg, including the shoulder, amputated last week. One day at a time. Live each moment as if it were your last… It seems very appropriate now that Shakepeare’s 79th(?) sonnet is one of the very few poems I learned by heart-- the one that starts, “That time of year thou mayst in me behold…,”
and ends with the admonition to “Love that well which thou must leave ere long.”
Glad you are enjoying some quality time.
So happy to hear your pup is hanging in there! We sent a gsp home the other day with an osteosarc and they had a custom spli.t made for her leg…the dog seems very comfortablr with the added support. Surgery wasnt an optipn for them…but its prety cool to know theres lots of different options out there. Fingers crossed for many more quality months!
[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;6214368]
So happy to hear your pup is hanging in there! We sent a gsp home the other day with an osteosarc and they had a custom spli.t made for her leg…the dog seems very comfortablr with the added support. Surgery wasnt an optipn for them…but its prety cool to know theres lots of different options out there. Fingers crossed for many more quality months![/QUOTE]
Where did they get the splint??? I asked my vet if there was such a thing and he said “unfortunately, no.”
Thanks in advance-- so much.
Do you have a good accupuncture vet nearby? I’ve been really impressed with how much brighter my old girl is after her visits. Ours will come to the house, too, which might be a good option for your dog who hates vet clinics.
OP, I am sorry about your beloved dog’s diagnosis.
However, if I had the time to do again, I would not have tried the alternatives as well as the conventional treatments on my late beloved BCX (even now, 5 years on, I miss him). I simply didnt see the pain that he was in - it took my nephew coming up to visit to make me see the light.
I simply would not put a dog through that pain ever again. If any of my dogs get that diagnosis - well, there would be a very hard think and if I decided not to amputate, the dog would be PTS
I’m sorry about the diagnosis. OsteoSarc is bad juju. My only concern is that besides being very painful it severely weakens the bone that is affected. I have seen several dogs with OsteoSarc initially diagnosed because they went to do something very normal and mundane and the area/bone broke. Not at all a painless or happy last few moments for them.
I hope for the best and most pain free out come for your boy.
