Guardian dog does his job

[CanteringCarrot]

We have coyotes here and they can be a “problem” at times. I think there are too many and they don’t have a natural predator here, aside from humans.

I don’t know exactly what type of fence would keep them out? People have tried all sorts of things here. My BO has several close and high strands of barbed wire, no climb, and the hottest fence I’ve ever come across. The fences are high and strong, but they still find a way.

I’ve seen many people looking for donkeys and Great Pyrenees (pairs or more) recently. Some will just shoot at or actually shoot the coyotes if they’re at the right place at the right time with a gun. You also have to be skilled with shooting in the dark at times.

I’ve witnessed my neighbor shoot a warning shot (shotgun - loud) and the coyotes initially scatter, but come back later that night.

Sometimes it really isn’t as simple as “fence them out” or “just fire a shot out there” but sometimes it can be.

I don’t support or agree with this guy (featured in the OP) at all, but I’m just pointing out that coyotes can be a nuisance to livestock and not so easy to deal with. Sometimes they are, but other times it’s very frustrating. We have so many here and there are just carcasses from their kills (deer and whatever else) everywhere.

A friend of mine is more up to speed on the LGD stuff and owns a pair, but doesn’t use them for that, and yes, they are often used for an “alarm” but will fight to protect the flock/the weaker creatures that they’re guarding. Some of these LGD will protect the flock at all costs. Usually it begins with a warning, but if that warning isn’t enough, they will “go into battle” essentially. I think it can depend on how many coyotes there are, how brave they’re feeling, and perhaps how hungry. Typically if you have enough LGD’s that’s enough for them to feck off, but if you’ve only got one, that’s not enough.

The goat farmer around the bend from me only has one Great Pyrenees mix, and he will bark at the fence all day long, but one isn’t enough, IMO. His goats do come in at night, so perhaps that’s why he isn’t concerned.

I have mixed feelings about “dogs at work” sometimes, but when they’re bred for the job and set up right, it can be fastinating to watch them work. Whether it’s gun dug stuff, herding, scent tracking, or guarding.

[Mosey_2003]

@CanteringCarrot

I don’t support or agree with this guy (featured in the OP) at all, but I’m just pointing out that coyotes can be a nuisance to livestock and not so easy to deal with. Sometimes they are, but other times it’s very frustrating. We have so many here and there are just carcasses from their kills (deer and whatever else) everywhere.

A friend of mine is more up to speed on the LGD stuff and owns a pair, but doesn’t use them for that, and yes, they are often used for an “alarm” but will fight to protect the flock/the weaker creatures that they’re guarding. Some of these LGD will protect the flock at all costs. Usually it begins with a warning, but if that warning isn’t enough, they will “go into battle” essentially. I think it can depend on how many coyotes there are, how brave they’re feeling, and perhaps how hungry. Typically if you have enough LGD’s that’s enough for them to feck off, but if you’ve only got one, that’s not enough.

Of course there are situations like that, where you can’t fence them out etc. That is when you need to make sure you have enough well-trained dogs that it isn’t likely to get out of hand. If you have a bunch of sheep and heavy predator pressure, and you’re going to keep those sheep outside at night, you’re gonna need a lot of dogs. The people I trust recommend as many dogs as the typical pack size you have if you have wolves, so I would imagine there would be a little wiggle room for coyotes. Two is never going to be enough if the SHTF, like we see in the OP article. Three would be better, four or more preferable. At least one is always going to stay with the sheep, and that also depends on how many sheep you have. And yes, they will fight, but it’s not supposed to come to that on a regular basis because the predators know they outnumber the dogs vastly.

I think it makes so many people so angry because these dogs have been bred by and working with their shepherds for hundreds of years and they are SO wonderful. To take advantage of their nature and work ethic and not back them up is just…rotten.

[CanteringCarrot]

@Mosey_2003

@CanteringCarrot

I don’t support or agree with this guy (featured in the OP) at all, but I’m just pointing out that coyotes can be a nuisance to livestock and not so easy to deal with. Sometimes they are, but other times it’s very frustrating. We have so many here and there are just carcasses from their kills (deer and whatever else) everywhere.

A friend of mine is more up to speed on the LGD stuff and owns a pair, but doesn’t use them for that, and yes, they are often used for an “alarm” but will fight to protect the flock/the weaker creatures that they’re guarding. Some of these LGD will protect the flock at all costs. Usually it begins with a warning, but if that warning isn’t enough, they will “go into battle” essentially. I think it can depend on how many coyotes there are, how brave they’re feeling, and perhaps how hungry. Typically if you have enough LGD’s that’s enough for them to feck off, but if you’ve only got one, that’s not enough.

Of course there are situations like that, where you can’t fence them out etc. That is when you need to make sure you have enough well-trained dogs that it isn’t likely to get out of hand. If you have a bunch of sheep and heavy predator pressure, and you’re going to keep those sheep outside at night, you’re gonna need a lot of dogs. The people I trust recommend as many dogs as the typical pack size you have if you have wolves, so I would imagine there would be a little wiggle room for coyotes. Two is never going to be enough if the SHTF, like we see in the OP article. Three would be better, four or more preferable. At least one is always going to stay with the sheep, and that also depends on how many sheep you have. And yes, they will fight, but it’s not supposed to come to that on a regular basis because the predators know they outnumber the dogs vastly.

I think it makes so many people so angry because these dogs have been bred by and working with their shepherds for hundreds of years and they are SO wonderful. To take advantage of their nature and work ethic and not back them up is just…rotten.

Yep, I don’t disagree with any of that.

[pick_a_pony]

This article made me so angry when my husband told me about it. Guardian dogs are supposed to work in at least pairs. Only having one puts you into this situation if you have a pack attack. And not taking the time to find your injured dog should have the county animal control giving him the hairy eyeball if not citing him for failure to do something. I am not the kind of person that wants government officials poking to their noses into the business of livestock owners usually but this case makes it clear that there are some care standards for working animals that aren’t being met.

[Bicoastal]

This guy is an average representative of so many “homesteaders” who bought 1 to 5 acres from 2018 to 2022 with zero experience managing land or animals, educated themselves via YouTube, maybe launched their own YouTube for income, and quickly accumulated a lot of livestock-type animals. As I get into sheep, see more and more of this community.

Goats, pigs, poultry, and LGD sales seem to have exploded. This type of owner is not only uneducated, the education acquired is biased against traditional medical care and towards homeopathic/organic/“natural” care and management. Ya know, pharmaceuticals are a conspiracy to keep us sick and under the control of the go’ment. The animals are paying the price.

About increasing the number of dogs. Most of these ‘homesteaders’ have way too little land for how these dogs are bred to function. I don’t think adding more dogs will help this particular situation, just more roaming and mischief.

[Mosey_2003]

@Bicoastal

About increasing the number of dogs. Most of these ‘homesteaders’ have way too little land for how these dogs are bred to function. I don’t think adding more dogs will help this particular situation, just more roaming and mischief.

Correct. You have to be serious about actually managing your livestock properly - in other words be willing to build fence of an appropriate size and type to keep your LGD’s and stock in. With the way his “business” works rotating these animals to different people’s land, and sometimes keeping some of them on his own land, he should be able to have 3 or 4 dogs there with the sheep for however long they’re there. The dogs will roam and wander to establish a bigger territory, yes, but if you contain them, most of them are happy to stay with their sheep (and people). But, of course, those are not the choices that individual has decided to make, so…

[OzarksRider]

I haven’t read the Facebook page about this farmer and his dog, so I can’t comment on that. However, several posters have criticized the farmer for not having enough dogs to effectively guard the sheep. An article in the Washington Post contradicts this:

“To protect his sheep, Wierwille adopted six Great Pyreneeses, which were bred centuries ago to defend farm animals and can weigh more than 100 pounds. In late September, Wierwille saw a Facebook post from a farmer advertising Casper, who was named after the friendly ghost for his white fur.”

Here’s a link to the entire article: https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/12/09/sheepdog-coyote-attack-killed-eight/

I don’t know what actually happened, and I don’t have an opinion as to whether the dog should have been in that situation. I just don’t like to see someone villified unfairly, and I think a lot of the criticism here is doing just that. I think none of us really knows the whole story.

[Bicoastal]

@OzarksRider

. I just don’t like to see someone villified unfairly, and I think a lot of the criticism here is doing just that. I think none of us really knows the whole story

You are right, we do not know the full story. His FB page almost reads like he’s a dog flipper, acquiring a bunch of free dogs and moving them on.

I don’t know. Six? dogs. Or did he already move three out? Two dogs in with five sheep?

In today’s online world, if you put yourself out there on social media and news channels and ask for donations, you also put yourself out there for criticism.

What most of us are upset about is the incorrect education/impression this story feeds to a largely inexperienced community of new farm/stock owners. This owner is no example to follow, yet he’s being lauded.

[enjoytheride]

@Bicoastal

This guy is an average representative of so many “homesteaders” who bought 1 to 5 acres from 2018 to 2022 with zero experience managing land or animals, educated themselves via YouTube, maybe launched their own YouTube for income, and quickly accumulated a lot of livestock-type animals. As I get into sheep, see more and more of this community.

Goats, pigs, poultry, and LGD sales seem to have exploded. This type of owner is not only uneducated, the education acquired is biased against traditional medical care and towards homeopathic/organic/“natural” care and management. Ya know, pharmaceuticals are a conspiracy to keep us sick and under the control of the go’ment. The animals are paying the price.

About increasing the number of dogs. Most of these ‘homesteaders’ have way too little land for how these dogs are bred to function. I don’t think adding more dogs will help this particular situation, just more roaming and mischief.

Yup.

We live in the country but we have travelled to a super trendy part of the city several times to purchase coops when the urban farmers quit. It’s a lovely place to live, a lovely place to eat, and there are chickens and goats all over, but many of the urban farmers realize it’s a lot of work and sell their coops and stock.

[enjoytheride]

You can’t fence them out, and they do come back, but a gun fired scatters them for long enough to get your animals safe.

I also don’t think they attack horses, I’ve only seen dogs attack horses and actually had a pony out on lease attacked and injured by a pack of dogs. Luckily for her when she came home she’s pastured with two of my mustangs and my mare would eat a dog for lunch. Our neighbor’s dog had a hard lesson in staying out of my pasture.

[swmorse]

@Bicoastal

What most of us are upset about is the incorrect education/impression this story feeds to a largely inexperienced community of new farm/stock owners. This owner is no example to follow, yet he’s being lauded.

Yes, that’s why I shared the original post. I read the article, and not knowing about farming practices, (except for horses) it sounded like a hero dog story.

I got quite an education from these posts! Glad of it.

Saw another article on him but that was on my phone and now I’m on my desktop and not going to search it out. The only new part really in that article was that he got $15,000 donated for the dog’s care and after paying for the dog’s vet bill, donated the rest of the money to the clinic to be used by others who needed vet care that they possibly couldn’t afford.