Not necessarily. I work in a completely different field, but it is almost unheard of in my field for studies of certain types to ever be made available in any kind of public (e.g. peer reviewed journal) publication. Companies that generate the data simply see no need for it be made public. The people (e.g. regulators) who need to see the studies see the studies and that’s it.
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These studies may involve trade secrets in terms of helmet design or materials that can not be made public due to risk of competitors stealing that. I’m sure you understand the capitalistic motivation there. Or, they may simply be studies dictated using ASTM/ISO standards that preclude the necessity of public disclosure as the public can actually run their own equivalent studies.
I don’t publish work I do under ASTM/ISO standards as most large corporations never do either.
As noted there is no real economic benefit to the companies in making these studies public.
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@RAyers I am very well aware of trade secrets and confidentiality; I work in the pharmaceutical industry. But I’m still calling BS on the notion that there are hundreds of studies that have been completed on helmet safety comparing hair in and out of the helmet, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of them is subject to some kind of confidentiality agreement that keeps them out of the public eye.
Public interest in safety in equine sports is at an all time high; there are benefits besides economics that should compel the companies to make the studies (or summaries of the studies) public. Heck, Roy Burek from Charles Owen spoke publicly about this very topic. Trade secrets involving helmet design and materials can always be removed. Safety information for drugs and vaccines is available to the public without revealing trade secrets and manufacturing information; it can be done with helmet safety too.
In other words, me thinks thou doth protest too much.
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Maybe you could contact the various manufacturers of helmets and ask them for a copy of the relevant research.
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I’m not the one continually insisting that hundreds of these studies exist and then coming up with new excuses all the time for why they aren’t being linked to here. I’m certainly not going to spend any of my time on a fishing expedition for something that no one has shown any evidence to indicate that it even exists.
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@RND but you are the one claiming that the data should be publicly available. And unless you want to pay my standard $300/hour consulting fee, I’m not going to do your literature search for you. You claim you are smart and knowledge, go get the information for yourself. I’m not spending hours digging sources back up just to answer a single anonymous person on a bulletin board. I’d rather do it for the USEF, USEA safety committees in order to develop data driven safety measures.
I told you how to find the sources. What else do you want?
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You keep insisting there are studies but cannot produce any relevant material. If I started insisting that the Krebs Cycle was negatively impacted by magnets or that the entire ecosystem of Montana hinged on beavers, you’d not just take that at face value because I have a degree in it. I’d hope you’d actually look for evidence on those claims before just accepting that as fact.
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@StormyDay And I would actually be able to conduct a relevant search to find work that either refutes or justifies your claims.
At this point, it’s not even me who is saying the work has been done.Other posters here have also linked in relevant experts and comments.
We have all provided enough evidence to prove the case. It seems you both want some explicit hunter chicks study that examines how the hair is up at 2:34pm on a Thursday in the 3’6" hunters with a 2-stride combination.
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You’re right; they’ve linked to a source (Roy Burek from Charles Owen) that you (and I think others) have been claiming has collected data that shows hair worn up in helmets in less safe than hair worn down, and yet in his own recorded, public talk, he said no such thing when asked about that exact topic. In fact, he stated that there are instances where hair might be needed to keep the helmet properly in place.
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Yeah, you would. But we can’t, can we? Because there is no relevant research.
Just because some people say a thing does not make it true. Experts or not. There are thousands of instances where experts believed something to be true, only for later research to find out that it wasn’t so. It happens. And just because something might seem one way, doesn’t necessarily mean it is.
And I’d just like a relevant study in general, done with equestrian marketed helmets. There’s a reason we don’t wear bike or football or ski helmets when riding horses. They don’t function the same. They aren’t used for the same things, and they aren’t designed for the same things. You wouldn’t use a study on concussions when biking to talk about concussions with football. You’d conduct a study, because those sports are very different and have different impacts.
I’ll go back to my stirrup analogy. It appears to me (and others) that the risk of being dragged by my horse would decrease by using stirrups that have side releases, like the Acavallo or FreeJump. In theory, it would make sense that having the side open up would make it so that if I was dragged, It would release my foot.
I personally use these stirrups. But, I also know there’s no research showing that they are safer. And in the future, they may do a study that finds there is no real difference, or if there is it’s very very small. So I am not going to go around telling everyone they have to use these stirrups. I’m not going to try to get USEF to ban the regular fillis type stirrups. And I’m not going to say that they have to be safer because a manufacturer claims they are (which, some of the manufacturers of these stirrups do)
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@RND, did you actually listen to that talk? First, Roy’s initial answer was geared toward the fact that when the occipital bones don’t protrude hair done correctly can be used to stabilize the helmet if it requires occipital bone fixation. That is a genetic determinant.
When the man clarified his question, Roy pointed out that, yes, there may be only a few certain instances where hair up may have been a benefit, however it is akin to not wearing a seat belt when your car dives into a lake so you can make a quick exit. It is a situation that is minuscule in occurrence as compared to the overall times that hair is a detriment.
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The seatbelt analogy was in reference to the helmet not being too loose and not flopping around back and forth; that part of the conversation had nothing to do with hair up vs hair down - he simply said the helmet has to cover the head all the time and they want a helmet between the rider and the ground. Burek said that when it comes to hair, it’s a personal choice and indicated that they really just want a helmet that fits properly on every head. He absolutely did not say that under no circumstances is wearing hair up in a helmet safe.
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I can only presume that people are bored at home and can’t get out to ride their horses so splitting hairs and dancing on pinheads is deemed to be fun.
Are we at least all agreed that wearing a helmet is better than not wearing one - because tests and experience say it is so? I’m only here because of wearing a helmet and I’m so trained that I once lasted perhaps ten minutes without one before I put it back on, despite the ferocious heat.
Then perhaps leave Hunters to do their hair thing all alone?
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And I refer you back to my post #9 or 10. It was Roy Burek I was talking to.
I remember back in riding camp in the early 80s, I was sent away with a hunt cap–I guess you’d call it a patey or crash cap. I was a nervous rider, and was told by the instructor not to worry, “because if you fall off, you’ve got your hat on”! No chinstrap, either, except a bit of elastic. I had a big head as a kid, and I don’t think my mom could find one that fit with one of those plastic tan straps.
Of course, now we have much better technology (thank heavens) and understand better how to protect ourselves.
I am not going to proclaim myself Dr. Google or a scientist, since we have actual experts in this thread. It doesn’t surprise me, however, that there isn’t literally mountains of research on this in the public domain, because this is a relatively niche subject. Also, most research on any scientific issue is not 1,000% conclusive. But the preponderance of the evidence I’ve read suggests that helmets are safer if they fit as snugly to the head as possible, with minimal interference, irregularities, and air pockets, which hair stuffed up in the helmet can create.
Anecdotally, to support my wearing my hair outside in a bun, I’ll also note that when I did obey people about putting it up (this was like, 5-6 years ago), I noticed a compromised fit, as my helmet would be looser in the winter versus the summer, because of the way humidity affects my hair texture. And yes, I wore it up for about a year when I was riding at a hunter barn and there was a big-ass deal about putting it up in a hairnet every ride. Eventually, I quietly got a new tighter helmet and started to wear it out, and occasionally got comments about that, which I ignored. I ride dressage now, so wearing it in a bun is not an issue.
I agree that more research should be done on different hair types. I’d hope, like all safety research, this is an evolving subject. But simply because there isn’t a single, big public domain study that demands you leave your hair out doesn’t mean you can’t make an optimal decision about the evidence that’s out there, which is wearing your hair up is less safe and compromises fit. It wouldn’t surprise me that it might be less of an issue for some hair types, but just because it’s not AS dangerous for everyone equally doesn’t make it safe.
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Funny you should say that.
I was just thinking the other day that it was during this week many years ago that I signed up and posted on the BB for the very first time, since I was home for the holidays and cooped up in a house full of relatives due to a blizzard. So I was in desperate need of a diversion to pass the time. Lol.
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The original thread with excellent instructions on how to use pantyhose to imitate “hunter hair” if one had short hair seems to be gone, but there’s some discussion here, on a thread from 2013… One poster says that the H/J forum must have a thread on hunter hair for things to be right in the world.
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Ha, that was mine! I still use a half Buff under my helmet, just to absorb the sweat. Fun colors at home, a demure color in public (mostly foxhunting these days - the Buff definitely helps keep the ears warm.). My hair is now ponytail length, but I can wrap it around and secure it in the back of the Buff instead of putting it up under the helmet.
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First world problems, so fraught!
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I do believe everything on a horse forum is a first world problem, since we are discussing expensive pets.
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