Hanoverian licensing results

[fannie_mae]

[QUOTE=monami;7242773]
…The Ampere/ Weltruhm was also very correct and nice of the dressage horses and probably deserves a mention for those keeping an eye out to the future…[/QUOTE]

glad s.o. is pointing out that one
my favourite horse of the entire dressage lot and the most functional horse in each respect incl interieur. a complete horse. despite being a son of ampere this was one of the very few horses of three above average gaites incl walk (which usually is the most critial in ampere’s get). as a matter of fact:
he doesn’t embodie much of ampere at all, to me it was bay dupe of grandgrandsire latimer wich would also explain interieur and lesser “spectacle”.
most efficient hindleg being able to step under, carry (ability to “sit down”) and with respect to reactivity/speed in footing. perfect on the lounge searching the bid, stretching all through the body and always in perfect balance. functional back (solid) and three days in absolut convincing behaviour/mind.
superior.
cool.
perfect dressage horse.

it did make sense they bought him back for that money compared to the amounts that were paied for others.

[Lord_Helpus]

[QUOTE=fannie mae;7238622]
they are nominated by the vorstand and need to be confirmed by the delegates - at least that is the case in westfalia and i assume it is the same with any other verband.

re totilas
there have been four totilas sons so far at the various preselections (westf, oldbg, hann) and non of them belonged there (my very personal opinion).
the licensing of the one here in hanover was a slap in the face to any other stallion owner who had a less critical stallion out there that wasn’t licensed for good reason. they have to accept it and they do. however, the spontaneous reaction of the public truly speaks for itself and the licensing committe lost a lot of credibility letting this one pass.[/QUOTE]

Just curious. Is there a quota of stallion prospects that get approved? If a Totilas son is licensed, does that mean that another (perhaps more deserving horse) is rejected?

If not, then why should the connections of a horse who was not licensed be upset because the Totilas colt was accepted?

Obviously I was not there and cannot comment on the confomation of the Totilas, but pedigree does (and should) go a long way when evaluating a young horse.

When the inspectors go around to TB farms to evaluate yearlings, they rank the young stock on a 1 - 7 scale based on conformation. Meanwhile another group of pedigree gurus look at the pedigrees of these top young horses, also on a 1 - 7 scale.

If I horse collectively socres a 10 or above, then he/she is scheduled to be part of the Preferred section of the sale. In theory, a horse can have a 7 pedigree, and then he will only need a 3 in conformation to sell on the first several days (out of 2 weeks). Or an outstanding individual could make the cut with a mediocre pedigree.

Does anyone know how it is decided which stallions are approved? One might think that a similar scale is used.

[alexandra]

Just curious. Is there a quota of stallion prospects that get approved? If a Totilas son is licensed, does that mean that another (perhaps more deserving horse) is rejected?

No, there is no percentage, number or whatever it is a matter of quality evaluation.

If not, then why should the connections of a horse who was not licensed be upset because the Totilas colt was accepted?

Because their’s was better quality wise (we are not talking barn blind owners in the particular case that I guess fanniemae has in mind, but an often heard statement that evening)

Obviously I was not there and cannot comment on the confomation of the Totilas, but pedigree does (and should) go a long way when evaluating a young horse.

When the inspectors go around to TB farms to evaluate yearlings, they rank the young stock on a 1 - 7 scale based on conformation. Meanwhile another group of pedigree gurus look at the pedigrees of these top young horses, also on a 1 - 7 scale.

If I horse collectively socres a 10 or above, then he/she is scheduled to be part of the Preferred section of the sale. In theory, a horse can have a 7 pedigree, and then he will only need a 3 in conformation to sell on the first several days (out of 2 weeks). Or an outstanding individual could make the cut with a mediocre pedigree.

Does anyone know how it is decided which stallions are approved? One might think that a similar scale is used.

The committee scores quite a few criteria with the normal 0-10 scores. And no, these scores are not available to the public.

[FreshAir]

Did a Fidertanz get the high bid at the auction? Going to Brazil ?

[Lord_Helpus]

No, there is no percentage, number or whatever it is a matter of quality evaluation.

If not, then why should the connections of a horse who was not licensed be upset because the Totilas colt was accepted?

Because their’s was better quality wise (we are not talking barn blind owners in the particular case that I guess fanniemae has in mind, but an often heard statement that evening)

“Quality” means many things to different people. In theory I can understand that a Totilas might be approved because his pedigree score was so high that his conformation score could be mediocre. Not only was Totilas an outstanding dressage horse, but I believe that mares sent to him also had to be of the highest quality to be accepted.

Does anyone know how it is decided which stallions are approved? One might think that a similar scale is used.

The committee scores quite a few criteria with the normal 0-10 scores. And no, these scores are not available to the public.[/QUOTE]

TB scores are not available to the public either. But, many years ago I was told the system by which they decided which horses were accepted into the Preferred sale and it made sense to me when I could look at teach indiviual from that perspective. So, I was suggesting that the connections might not have reason to grouse since 1. the Totilas sons’ status of being approve/not approved had nothing to do with the judging of their own colt, and 2. merely looking at a horse did not give people enough information to enable those who thought that the resulting decision was biased/unfair/incorrect to be valid.

[alexandra]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;7244226]

I can understand that a Totilas might be approved because his pedigree score was so high that his conformation score could be mediocre. [/QUOTE]

There is no Pedigree score in the licensing.

@Lord Helpus;7244226

Not only was Totilas an outstanding dressage horse, but I believe that mares sent to him also had to be of the highest quality to be accepted.

That was a marketing gag or whatever in fact everyone willing to pay the 8000€ plus tax was accepted.

@Lord Helpus;7244226

So, I was suggesting that the connections might not have reason to grouse since 1. the Totilas sons’ status of being approve/not approved had nothing to do with the judging of their own colt, and 2. merely looking at a horse did not give people enough information to enable those who thought that the resulting decision was biased/unfair/incorrect to be valid.

Well how shall I put it ?
Crowd did not think the Totilas should have been licensed.
There was a buyer willing to pay x plus only if he was licensed who declared that in advance.
A sale for 100.000 results to an income of 17.000€ for the Verband.

And as for the people that I know accounts: His “not licensed” was declared before it was declared for the Totilas. I heard quite a few. Not licensed ? Why not ? in my area when it was proclaimed. When the result for the Totilas was proclamed lots of whistleing, and also quite a few yelling Buh.

[rodawn]

Quite simply - politics. Pure and simple.

When politics gets involved it never ends well.

[Home_Again_Farm]

Lord Helpus, you are making assumptions that the licensing procedure is like the TB yearling evaluation. It is not. Pedigree does not trump conformation. The stallions must be well above average in most if not all (I am thinking about some recent walks and a few other traits) categories.

You are also making an assumption about how Hannover is likely to view Totilas’s pedigree that I believe is flawed.

You are really comparing apples to oranges.

[grayarabpony]

And yet the United colt was a crowd favorite…

[DownYonder]

It wasn’t so much politics that drove the licensing of the Totilas colt, as it was MONEY and PR.

I posted this on another thread, and will repeat it here since this thread directly addresses the licensing of the Totilas colt.

He was approved because the Glocks were looking for a Totilas stallion son and Hanover knew there would be several at the Oldenburg licensing, as well as the Westfalen licensing. If Hannover hadn’t licensed him, the Glocks would go shopping in Vechta and/or Warendorf, and Glock has PLENTY of money to spend. Hanover not only wanted to be the first to license a Totilas son, but it absolutely wanted that sale for the PR value it instantly gave them, and would hopefully give them when EG starts competing the horse. It all came down to bragging rights (and moola in the bank).

Someone mentioned much the same above, and the fact is that the Verband wanted to grab that sale to Glock. If EG rides down the centerline one day at WEG or Olympics, etc., on that horse, it will be a huge feather in the Verband’s cap, and the members of the licensing commission will be hailed as courageous visionaries instead of being booed and hissed.

[back_in_the_saddle]

Could they have licensed him, they (Glock) didn’t buy him and the price go low? Was that a guaranteed sale (to them) if the horse was approved? I understand the points above, but they didn’t necessarily know it was a slam dunk Glock sale either, right?

[alexandra]

BitS, it is an auction and yes it could have ended in a low price.

But the Verband People are not stupid and people do not buy horses sight unseen. e.g. Dr. Möller was there two days and other prominent known relations to this or that stallion Person, rider etc. These people are known and Verden ist not an unpersonal huge venue. People see other people. So the sales People know who is there. They also have a good feeling who is interested in what.

[Kyzteke]

I guess I’m alittle surprised that everyone is so surprised a T. colt got licensed. From what I can follow, there has been a relatively low number of colts of his that have even made it to the licensing. Certainly not like other stallions, who might have 3-4 per licensing.

So it was vital that this ONE get licensed. It is to everyone’s benefit that hero’s never fail. And again, neither T. himself or the “R” line in general are know for their precocious, “money” trots at a young age. (although Rotspon himself was very flashy as a youngster).

Looking at his pedigree I would not expect alot of flash as a late 2 yr old…and if he was fat…

But I also would not count him out either…especially w/Gal riding. If ever a young stallion is getting a shot at greatness, it’s this guy.

Does he have a name yet?

[fannie_mae]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7245515]
I guess I’m alittle surprised that everyone is so surprised a T. colt got licensed. From what I can follow, there has been a relatively low number of colts of his that have even made it to the licensing. Certainly not like other stallions, who might have 3-4 per licensing…[/QUOTE]

exactly.
and that is for a reason.

nobody is expecting flashy gaites from a T. fair enough, knowing his sire doesn’t have them, either, and it shows in his get. very understandably so.
these gaites were decently acceptable.
and ooooh no, rotspon truly doesn’t deserve such comparison …

[monami]

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7244377]
And yet the United colt was a crowd favorite…[/QUOTE]

The United Colt had a very flashy trot that crowds love, but his walk was not good.

I think it is important to remember that the quality of the horses is EXTREMELY high so you are comparing exceptional to incredible.

[omare]

As a non dressage person–which stallions had the best walk?

(I think I might mistake the exceptional stepping under/more angled downhill looking hindquarters at a walk as not sound or looking disconnected…) TIA

[clint]

I have notes about a good walk on several of the Diamond Hit sons, a Furst Romancier, a San Amour, and the St. Mortiz Junior who was the top seller.

[grayarabpony]

[QUOTE=monami;7246720]
The United Colt had a very flashy trot that crowds love, but his walk was not good.

I think it is important to remember that the quality of the horses is EXTREMELY high so you are comparing exceptional to incredible.[/QUOTE]

Yes I know he has a “flashy trot” (although I didn’t like it in the short video clip), the walk was not good and the crowd loved him anyway. That was my point.

That walk wasn’t exceptional on any planet.

[alexandra]

I would really say that the crowd loved his trot as they were clapping while he trotted, but I am also sure that they saw and did not like the walk. Just because they did not whistle when he was licensed does not mean they loved him overall. And one really has to say that conformation (as far as I could see while moving), trot, canter did look better.
Again the people sitting around commented me commented also on the walk …
To be honest I was a bit wondering in the end as I saw one or the other better steps when he dropped his head for a second (did not see him on the triangle, so I think I can really judge if that was by accident …)

The licensing committee has seen these stallion more often than just Thursday and Friday. They have seen them at the preselection (I guess the scores given there are written in the notes everyone has) and I guess they have seen them uppon arrival and final vet check plus there is as far as I know some sort of showing them the freejumping.

This maybe means one needs to be able to really understand and judge everything, to do the full trip of preselection, attend as soon as the staallions arrive at Verden on Wednesday, watch the triangle from a real good position (next to the committee) etc.
And one really has to have that sort of experienced. Who of you sees in just one year more than 2000 horses and judges them according to breeding material ccriteria ?
If I take together the preselection stallions, mare shows, foal Shows where these people judge I come for sure to this number. Plus all the events that they “just” attend - I would say they see 5000 or more horses a year easily and by this train their eyes and knowledge. I can only speak for myself seeing as many horses as possible knowing also their pedigree helps to educate your eye and to expect in a horse to see certain traits or not. So yes I have my opinion about the licensing but there are much more things to it that I can not see and know.

In the end one also has to put the licensing into perspective: This is the first step of selection for a stallion to become breeding stallion. It is certainly no guarantee they will ever have a really good influence on the breed. A friend of mine put it this way: we (as normal breeders he meant) have to get away from adoring the inhandgods and declaring the shit at the licensing to a constant evaluation, that we base on various observations, on monitoring the stallions.

Coming back this means to me I do not go in consense with the licensing of the Totilas, I maybe be looking at him in the future to change or reverse my opinion. But for the time beeing he is certainly not on the radar for my mares. Maybe anyway not possible as he may not be offered at all. My decision may be wrong, but there are soo many different stallions that I really like and I have just 3 mares. I know there are lots that comliment my mares. I do not really Need this particular one - at least at the time being.

[Kareen]

I think there seems to be a lot of misunderstanding here about the licensing in general. It’s not about who is the most promising sporthorse but it is about finding out who out of approx. 6-7k colts is worthy or reproducing.
It is also not supposed to be a decision of personal taste (good or bad) but certain standards are defined in the statutes and one of them is that for a stallion in order to get approval, none of the conformation criteria can be lower than 7.
Now I can assure you, had any of us presented a mare with a hindleg as this she wouldn’t have got away with a 7, and with the more critical inspectors not even a 6.
This doesn’t mean the boy can’t be a wonderful sporthorse. Matter of fact there are many many olympic champions out there who are geldings and rightly so. There’s nothing wrong with that. Licensing is supposed to be a breeding consideration only and by virtually selling out their own standard this way the Hanoverian Verband to me has lost a lot more than can be gained by those 17k Euro worth in commissions. If we’re this desperate for €€ something has gone utterly wrong on many levels for a while…

I personally don’t expect this horse to pop up at the Olympics or WEG. Power and applause to his connections if he does but I don’t see it in him for a variety of reasons. We’ll be wiser in 6 or 7 years from now
But that’s not even the point in question. The point in question is should marketing considerations rule out standards and I am all against it because in a nutshell it means levering out what has made our breed so successful in the past. Not good!
I also think this trend shows in more than just a handful of whacky licensing decisions. There will always be the odd stallion where the majority of the public disagrees with the stallion committee. Goes with the nature of things and wouldn’t be a big problem.
But we’ve seen the same kind of thing happen over and over again even internationally. I’ve had more than a dozen phonecalls over the last few years from fellow breeders and horse-owners in Canada, the US and Australia who all ran to the same tone. Standards being thrown overboard for the sake of scratching the back of someone with a lot of financial pull. I say this is no good. Unfortunately it appears to be more of a modern times issue than limited to one registry or the other.
Credibility is the magic word. No matter on what level of the horseworld we look at there is an overall lack of credibility nowadays that is extremely detrimental to the industry. Decisions such as these are only an example. Will the world fall apart if this Totilas-son reproduces himself? Probably not. But that shouldn’t be the point. What it comes down to is that registries ought to live by their own statutes. Leave this track and things go t*** up one way or the other. Just my 2cts