Hanoverian licensing results

Both Alexandra and Kareen are spot on.
I have been outspoken here on COTH and to inspectors when I ask questions at inspections, shows, etc. about what the goal is when they decide to award scores.

If the goal is to produce more breeding stock, then certainly CONFORMATION has to be highly valued. Especially foundation construction.
If the goal is to produce performance, then not only conformation, but all three gaits need to be correct and above the average.

In my opinion, and EXPERIENCE, a stallion has to have it all–conformation to stand up to the work long term, gaits that are correct and expressive, and most important, the temperment/character/work ethic to be ridable and take the training, be a willing partner. Even if he nevers shows up the levels, as the offfpring will. The Totilas colt has the mind I think, but not the conformation.

I have been shaking my head for several years now with certain choices that have been made. There are many stallions getting licensed that have NO walk at all. No swing, no overtrack, bad rythym(lateral). But they do have powerhouse trots and very nice canters. Perhaps they are tense in these situations. But when there is a preponderance of offspring without walks in the first foal crop, and these stallions have similar bloodline, that tells a tale. And still more colts from that line are licensed. The trot is the money gait, period.

If you all stop and think about certain popular bloodlines, and think in percentages ( such as stallion A covered 500 mares in 1 yr and stallion B covered 50) and both have 10 offspring at FEI from that year, which is the better stallion? Many, many breeders flock to the licensing winners knowing nothing about the production record of the pedigree. Then they breed to the “Fashionable” young thing to find out 3 years later, it is an oversensitive, non workman, difficult horse to train. But everyone wants to sell and the “hot” new thing usually does.

As I said in the thread in the Dressage forum. This Totilas colt will have the very best chance to succeed. If he does, it will be because of the money behind him to support him–the best situations, best training and rider, best care and best support staff(vet, farrier, MT,etc) that money can buy.

The normal colt will not ever have that oppertunity to prove that he is just as good or even a superstar in the rough.

Hindsight is 20/20. In looking back at the choices the Verbands have made, they have effectivaly lost the older “G” line becasue they won’t give the scores to them, they are not pretty enough. Even with their attempt to bring it back, they would not award scores sufficient for breeders to use that blood.
In the early days, the Celle did not take any Donnerhall blood until the breeders flocked to use other stallions by Donnerhall himself. Then came Don Federico and Don Vino.

Eurodressage has posted a new article about the licensing.
http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2013/11/05/reason-celebrate-2013-hanoverian-stallion-licensing

I thought the Eurodressage article very cogent. It covered the bases well (and opinions coincided with posters here, too)

Interesting thread…

You all make it sound like these stallions must be judged for a future in the dressage arena. I’m sure many of them are. But it’s not the only discipline that people breed for, just saying.

There was an excellent group of jumper stallions, and one bred for eventing. Not quite the controversy there, I would say, as the dressage bred stallions have stirred up.

Go Fish - What’s your point? The two stallions that have garnered the most discussion (and not just on this BB) were indeed bred to be dressage horses and the intention is for them to excell in the arena and then the breeding shed…

?

Ok that maybe as i eg breed dressage horses so does maryana and Kareen Manila aswell. I have the Impression that on this forum the dressage is more intereting. The accorado eg was a super jumper so were others. I will not write about them I feel not educated enough !
But the crowd for sure did also clap with enthusiasm in the same way as for the “trotwonders”. Before making assumptions - ask those who were there and know “their” jumping…

[QUOTE=Kerole;7248516]
Go Fish - What’s your point? The two stallions that have garnered the most discussion (and not just on this BB) were indeed bred to be dressage horses and the intention is for them to excell in the arena and then the breeding shed…

?[/QUOTE]

My best hunter was “indeed bred to be a dressage horse.” She’s produced 3 foals for me and none of them were dressage horses, either.

With horses this young, I wouldn’t pigeon hole any of them nor would I necessarily be making predictions on future dressage greatness based on what you see in front of you today.

With horses this young, I wouldn’t pigeon hole any of them nor would I necessarily be making predictions on future dressage greatness based on what you see in front of you today.

I agree with only a little of that Go Fish. Predicting greatness is difficult granted, but pigeon-holing is what selective breeding is all about. A Weltmeyer/Donnerhall/Quaterback/etc is not bred to be an all rounder! Indeed breeding for all round ability may produce offspring that is mediocre at everything. The event horse is a great example of this - the great majority of top-end eventers would not hold their own in the pure dressage or show jumping rings.

A young stallion should be very clearly one or the other (or specifically intended as an eventer) by virtue of his bloodlines, conformation, and raw abilities. All rounders DO happen but they are, and should remain, unintentional nice suprises.

Kerole, the best dressage and show jumping horses also probably wouldn’t be great XC machines, either.

I’m sure it was unintentional, but you sounded as if you were disrespecting event horses.

You’re right Viney, I did sound disrespectful and it was absolutely unintentional. Sorry. I should have been clearer.

I did not mean that event horses are mediocre at everything! Event horses are exceptional at what they do because they need to be very good at more than one discipline. But put up against purists they would not hold their own. And yes that goes both ways - a top end dressage star would most likely suck across country! :slight_smile:

Please, I did not mean to come across as anti-event horse - I LOVE eventers and bred them for many years :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Kerole;7248917]
A Weltmeyer/Donnerhall/Quaterback/etc is not bred to be an all rounder! Indeed breeding for all round ability may produce offspring that is mediocre at everything. The event horse is a great example of this - the great majority of top-end eventers would not hold their own in the pure dressage or show jumping rings.
[…]
A young stallion should be very clearly one or the other (or specifically intended as an eventer) by virtue of his bloodlines, conformation, and raw abilities. All rounders DO happen but they are, and should remain, unintentional nice suprises.[/QUOTE]

Well I do not know.
First of all I would expect quite a good jumpn from a Quaterback/Donnerhall/Quaterback. But right - this may be bred with the Intention for dressage purely.

Guess why such a great percentage of international event riders sit now on german horses ? Because a number of breeders over here breed just for that. And These horses are not mediocre (if that means less than average) on everything. And all the even horses over here that are all doing pure dressage and jumping test. Even the international riders o that. Braxxi had to go into jumping tests as his normal jumping was always not really great and cost her at least 2 or 3 big medals.

"A young stallion should be very clearly one or the other (or specifically intended as an eventer) by virtue of his bloodlines, conformation, and raw abilities. All rounders DO happen but they are, and should remain, unintentional nice suprises. "
No I certainly disagree and so does the Verband as far as I know. All dressage horses should be able to make a decent enough jump to be able to compete easily in smaller venues. A Jumper should be “fluent” enough in his gaits and offer enough rideability to compete in smaller dressage classes. If we start breeding for just one Disziplin and loosing the other completely out of our minds. We for sure will miss a certain part of athletism and traits of the other discilpine that is good for the one we breed for.
If one would do otherwise we would not have Quaterback and Sandro Hit.

I e.g. will not breed any mare that is not able to do at least a 90cm course decently. My dressage mares have proven they do that. Two of them just at home in training (Should have taken them to Shows though) and one also at shows.

All dressage horses should be able to make a decent enough jump to be able to compete easily in smaller venues. A Jumper should be “fluent” enough in his gaits and offer enough rideability to compete in smaller dressage classes.

That is not what I said or certainly not what I meant. :slight_smile:

I agree that all horses should be good all round athletes and be nice movers and be capable over smaller jumping courses. I meant those bred to be high-end dressage horses are unlikely to be seen winning show jumping medals (and vice versa). If you’re wnating to produce a top-level dressage horse you shouldn’t be searching through the showjumping sires lists - or am I alone in this thinking?

I consider cross-over stallions like Sandro Hit and Quaterback to be excellent examples of happy suprises! They bring a fantastic mix of jumping and dressage skill but they were never intended to be ‘good all rounders’.

[QUOTE=Kerole;7249351]
…I agree that all horses should be good all round athletes and be nice movers and be capable over smaller jumping courses. I meant those bred to be high-end dressage horses are unlikely to be seen winning show jumping medals (and vice versa). If you’re wnating to produce a top-level dressage horse you shouldn’t be searching through the showjumping sires lists - or am I alone in this thinking?..[/QUOTE]

totally back your general statement that all horses should be good all round athletes and be nice movers and be capable over smaller jumping courses.

and while wide spread theorie also backs your statement “to produce a top-level dressage horse you shouldn’t be searching through the showjumping sires lists” practice often proves us wrong.
the entire dutch dressage horse breeding is built on purest holstein jumper genetics - food for thought (flemingh jazz - to name the most dominant present foundation sires.)
many top class dressage horses are products of coincidence, often descending from jumper lines.
olympic ferro (van baalen) by ulft farn (very Holst…) his son metall (damsire ramiro!) having sired famous uthopia o/o dam by inspecteur x ulft.
sunrise (Imke Sschelleknes bartels, ned) by singular joter x werther
salinero (anky van grunsven) by salierie lungau, full sibling comepting intl jumping
elvis (nadine capellmann) by esprit garibaldi (grande)
le noir (uta gräf) by leandro x caletto
goldstern (balkenohl) by weinberg direx
gigolo (isabell werth) by graditz busoni xx
satchmo (isabell werth) by sao paolo legat
quantum tyme (evi strasser) by quattro
chequille (emma hindle) by caretano x lavall
rostropowitsch (chr koschel) by rockwell x coriograf x landadel
granat (stückelberger) holst http://www.eurodressage.com/equestrian/2009/11/28/granat-ugly-duck-beautiful-swan
lissaro by lissabon x matcho

the list is endless.
all of these are products of coincidence but all of them prove the useful and in my opinion still present necessity of jumper blood in dressage horse breeding which doesn’t exclude pure jumper blood, either.

… and to get back to the initial’s topic purpose, the recent hannoverian licensing:
there were quiet a few excellent jumpers i consider potential dressage prospectuses, too, if only trained accordingly by the right people.
would they breed accordingly?
they certainly could if only being bred to the right mare which might as well descend from pure dressage genetics.

reason i apply selected jumper blood in my dressage horse breeding (conen by chequille, quattro, lissaro etc)

so, no, while you might not be alone with your thinking there are certainly different approaches around and being practiced :slight_smile:

Don’t forget that Sandro Hit is from a jumping sire line.

[QUOTE=Kerole;7248917]
Indeed breeding for all round ability may produce offspring that is mediocre at everything. The event horse is a great example of this - the great majority of top-end eventers would not hold their own in the pure dressage or show jumping rings.

A young stallion should be very clearly one or the other (or specifically intended as an eventer) by virtue of his bloodlines, conformation, and raw abilities. All rounders DO happen but they are, and should remain, unintentional nice suprises.[/QUOTE]

I think most breeders and certainly ALL of the breeding groups in Europe disagree w/this theory…in fact just the opposite!

As other posters have noted, the primary registries who produce jumpers (Holsteiners for example), have put far more emphasis on gait quality in the last 10-20 yrs., while more dressage-aimed registries like the Hanoverian have beefed up their jumper program(s).

At this point, just about everyone (breeders & registries alike) realize an “all arounder” can contribute a great deal to the mix, whatever you are looking for.

The last two stallions I bred my Weltmeyer/Batido/Bolero mare to (talk about ZERO jumping blood…:eek:) were Sandro Hit sons w/jumping damsires (Escudo & Contender). As Viney noted, SH came from a jumping line.

So if you JUST looked at the pedigree, it would seem an odd mix, but it worked out great. Excellent gaits, strong “engine”.

IME, the jumper blood often gives you a far superior canter…

Yes like I said, there will always be exceptions. Cross-over stallions like Sandro Hit and Quaterback are invaluable to breeders but are not the norm. Would I use Hickstead to breed a dressage super star? No. And I would say the same of using 99% of jumper stallions.

Choosing a dressage stallion with some jumping heritage is different to choosing a current jumping phenomenon to improve your dressage breeding program.

BTW I am using dressage breeding only as an example :slight_smile:

Bolero was 3/4 TB. There were excellent jumping lines in his pedigree, both from Black Sky and Bleep. Bleep’s grandsire tail male was Chanteur, and he has a few lines to Blandford, as well as one to Bachelor’s Double, who was Furioso’s damsire. He’s also packed with both Bay Ronald and Kendal. Kendal was the sire of the other German foundation TBs, Ard Patrick and Galtee More (full brothers). Black Sky is Djebel on top, and has Umidwar, Hurry On, Mr. Jinks (Roi Herode) and Grey Sovereign’s 3/4 sibling, Nimbus.

Bleep, Black Sky AND Blandford have all three of the foundation stallions on the first page. Nimbus does not, but he does have Herod.

How many top warmblood dressage horses don’t have jumper blood? Jumper ancestors seem common.

The dam sire of Totilas, Glendale, was a 1.5m ISH according to horse telex.

Jumper blood is often added to improve the canter and “engine” in a dressage horse; this rarely works the other way, though. I cannot think of any examples of breeding dressage genes into a jumper to improve the jump.

This discussion of suitability for dressage versus jumping seems to be a result of Go Fish’s comment. In response, I would suggest that it is completely reasonable to assume that dressage bred horses will likely end up as dressage horses; one does not necessarily need to make the same assumption about nice-moving jumper-bred horses, but I don’t think many would expect something bred primarily for dressage with little jumping blood to end up as a high level jumper.