These of you say Weltmeyer no jumping blood should actually do a bit research: check out his SPT. Check ou also e.g. the SPT of Wonderland. Check out ancestors etc.
Sandro Hit and Quaterback are neither exception nor coincidence. One can also easily enhance Fanniemae’s list with a lot of stallions like them maybe not as famous.
Rouletto comes to my mind, Almoretto …
Tradewind has said my thoughts better than I have been trying to do 
[QUOTE=alexandra;7250733]
These of you say Weltmeyer no jumping blood should actually do a bit research: check out his SPT. Check ou also e.g. the SPT of Wonderland. Check out ancestors etc.
Sandro Hit and Quaterback are neither exception nor coincidence. One can also easily enhance Fanniemae’s list with a lot of stallions like them maybe not as famous.
Rouletto comes to my mind, Almoretto …[/QUOTE]
These are great examples of jumping blood being added to improve the dressage. This supports my point, however: to date I don’t believe these stallions have demonstrated they can produce top level jumpers (not that anyone is breeding jumper bred mares to them with this purpose in mind, on the other hand, but this is really a slightly different issue). For a dressage stallion to produce a great jumper would probably be something of an exception, where as adding jumper blood to create a better dressage horse can often be a wise breeding policy.
[QUOTE=Tradewind;7250884]
These are great examples of jumping blood being added to improve the dressage. This supports my point, however: to date I don’t believe these stallions have demonstrated they can produce top level jumpers (not that anyone is breeding jumper bred mares to them with this purpose in mind, on the other hand, but this is really a slightly different issue). For a dressage stallion to produce a great jumper would probably be something of an exception, where as adding jumper blood to create a better dressage horse can often be a wise breeding policy.[/QUOTE]
There are some stallions who have produced both jumping and dressage horses. Ulft is a good example and he’s in Hickstead’s pedigree 3 generations back. His son Ferro also produced some international show jumpers, although of course primarily he’s known as a dressage competitor and sire. Ulft was a mix of dressage and jumping traits befitting his lineage. His sire was the great SF Le Mexico and his damsire was Pericles xx, a show jumper who produced both dressage horses and show jumpers.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;7250510]
Bolero was 3/4 TB. There were excellent jumping lines in his pedigree, both from Black Sky and Bleep. Bleep’s grandsire tail male was Chanteur, and he has a few lines to Blandford, as well as one to Bachelor’s Double, who was Furioso’s damsire. He’s also packed with both Bay Ronald and Kendal. Kendal was the sire of the other German foundation TBs, Ard Patrick and Galtee More (full brothers). Black Sky is Djebel on top, and has Umidwar, Hurry On, Mr. Jinks (Roi Herode) and Grey Sovereign’s 3/4 sibling, Nimbus.
Bleep, Black Sky AND Blandford have all three of the foundation stallions on the first page. Nimbus does not, but he does have Herod.[/QUOTE]
I don’t care if he was half-Hickstead – Bolero (from all I’ve read and heard) was actually known as a “jump killer.” He has been referenced as such in several books – including (IIRC) “The Makine of Modern WB.” Indeed, according to records, Bolero had/had a dressage index of 139 vs a jumping index of 57.
And all those who remind us that Weltmeyer had good jumping scores in his stallion testing; true, but he never did produce a jumper of note…not in all his some 5000+ foals.
His dressage index is 149 w/ a 66 for jumping. These horses did not produce jumpers, no matter what their pedigree.
never say never
according to the FN yearbook weltmeyer produced 4 kids sucesfully comepting in s-class jumping.
these might well be the exceptions to prove the rule but it is always the indvidual horse that matters, no matter what the pedigree might suggest.
[QUOTE=fannie mae;7252929]
never say never
according to the FN yearbook weltmeyer produced 4 kids sucesfully comepting in s-class jumping.
these might well be the exceptions to prove the rule but it is always the indvidual horse that matters, no matter what the pedigree might suggest.[/QUOTE]
Last years’ Hanoverian Yearbook shows that Weltmeyer had more than 4000 registered Hanoverian offspring alone (not inclusive of the other German/European/US studbooks). I wouldn’t bother walking across the show grounds to see a “jumper” sired by Weltmeyer.
4000 ???
you sure - or a typo ?
This one site says his breed value for jumping is 117 (http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/weltmeyer.shtml), and another (http://www.ihb.com.au/index1.html?http://www.ihb.com.au/main.php?warmblood,stallion,133)says that he is above average for jumping. Perhaps someone can give a brief explanation of why some of the breeding values (within the same article) are different?
Anyway I think the point viney and others were making about Weltmeyer is that he did have ancestors who produced jumpers, so Weltmeyer does have jumping blood, even though he was primarily a dressage sire.
[QUOTE=alexandra;7254038]
4000 ???
you sure - or a typo ?[/QUOTE]
The link to Weltmeyer’s data from the Hanoverian Yearbook - DE 331314403584
“Number of registered offspring in Hanover - 4116”
“Breeding value mare performance test - Jumping - 71”
[QUOTE=alexandra;7254038]
4000 ???
you sure - or a typo ?[/QUOTE]
Lifetime, 4,116
FN breed value jumping, 62. He wouldn’t be my choice as a jumper stallion, but he does indeed have 4 at S level.
[QUOTE=grayarabpony;7254041]
This one site says his breed value for jumping is 117 (http://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/weltmeyer.shtml), and another (http://www.ihb.com.au/index1.html?http://www.ihb.com.au/main.php?warmblood,stallion,133)says that he is above average for jumping. Perhaps someone can give a brief explanation of why some of the breeding values (within the same article) are different?
Anyway I think the point viney and others were making about Weltmeyer is that he did have ancestors who produced jumpers, so Weltmeyer does have jumping blood, even though he was primarily a dressage sire.[/QUOTE]
HLP 1987: 143.96/1/40; RI 143.94/1 SI 141.44/3
Breeding Values: Dressage (146) Jumping (62)
Riding type (129) Conformation (140) Dressage (146) Jumping (71)
62 and 71 are way below average. He may have horses that jumped in his pedigree and maybe he can but he does not pass it along. The four that do are probably because the dam. White Star is a hunter sire but his dam is all G-line and D-line, which adds a ton of jump. He is still a hunter sire and not a jumper sire.
So where does the 117 index come from? That one seems to be for progeny overall. Were both articles incorrect?
And yes I do realize that Weltmeyer is a dressage sire.
Indices can change over the years. No doubt the 117 came from a different year of the Stallion Book.
Thanks I wondered about that!
[QUOTE=Home Again Farm;7254101]
Indices can change over the years. No doubt the 117 came from a different year of the Stallion Book.[/QUOTE]
Or the index was calculated in another way. For example, the FN breeding values can be skewed rather dramatically through the success of a single offspring. Plenty has been written elsewhere on this topic.
In addition, I looked at the write-up for Weltmeyer on the Superior Equine Sires - the information there looks to be at least a decade old…
The most recent breeding value data for Weltmeyer compiled by the Hanoverian Verband is available through the link I posted earlier in this thread. In a month or so, the 2013 data will be available.
I know that Wie Weltmeyer has decent jumping scores. I remember seeing a video years ago of him jumping. He has Dynamo and Dagobert in his damline. Same goes for all the Wolkenstein II horses. You wouldn’t breed them for your next jumper, but they don’t all suck at it. It seems that Weltmeyer doesn’t necessarily kill the jumping genes like a lot-- thinking Brentano II and Lauries Crusader. (I’ve often wondered how a Tb can lend such poor jumping genes.) I would also think that some consideration could be given to the fact that many of the mares are bred to him specifically for dressage and therefore won’t have the jumping background possibly lowering Weltmeyer’s scores. I don’t know.
I was surprised to see an international level event horse with Warkant, I believe as the sire some years ago. I can’t remember what horse that would be though, so maybe my memory is wrong.
The same can be said of Donnerhall. A lot of the Donnerhalls can jump particularly when bred to a mare that has some inclination. I believe that many have been shown in the hunter category. See Deniro.
Just like many nice dressage horses have Castro (Cordelabryere, spelling wrong!) in the dam line. I don’t know much of anything about him though.
[QUOTE=clint;7254057]
Lifetime, 4,116
FN breed value jumping, 62. He wouldn’t be my choice as a jumper stallion, but he does indeed have 4 at S level.[/QUOTE]
And that 4116 are ONLY the foals bred/registered in the Hanover District. I’m betting, with the success/quality of his frozen, there are at least 1000-2000 more in various registries world-wide. I know of 4 Welty offspring (including mine) in just my little corner of the world.
So – 4 jumpers (or 3 jumpers + 1 hunter) o/o some 5000+ foals? Exceptions never prove the rule and this is a perfect case for that saying. You have better odds playing the lottery.
In my case, I was/am breeding strictly for the sport of dressage, but I’m a big believer in injecting jumper blood (as long as they also had outstanding gaits), especially as damsire. I think it brings alot of things to the table besides a better canter & “engine” – often brings a boldness and nimbleness that will help ANY athlete perform better.
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