[QUOTE=dianehalpin;6584626]
My Hanoverian by Kalypso who has Guter Fang on the bottom of his pedigree is as tough a mare as I’ve ever seen - with super feet. [/QUOTE]
My mare was out of Guter Fang by Graf Top II. She was unfortunately the victim of a very poor breeder that has turned out many horses with serious issues. I assume because of her animal husbandry/nutritional practices…
As an aside, is there any place I can look to find the breeding of the grand prix horses at Dressage at Devon? That list could help correlate the relationship of high level performance to bloodlines in a small way.
[QUOTE=columbus;6586304]
If the warmbloods had kept breeding horses to the traits of the G-line I would be happy but they wanted sensitive, refined, hot…so I have Irish Draughts. PatO[/QUOTE]
I agree. That is why I am looking at hardy bloodlines. They need to be preserved! What good does it to have high level athletes that need to be bubble-wrapped? The pendulum has got to swing back towards hardiness and soundness. (Not to say that there aren’t sound horses nowadays being bred of course!)
[QUOTE=not again;6586557]
As an aside, is there any place I can look to find the breeding of the grand prix horses at Dressage at Devon? That list could help correlate the relationship of high level performance to bloodlines in a small way.[/QUOTE]
Sire, dam, country of birth, and registry info are on day sheets -
http://dressageatdevon.org/cms2/2012pdf/2012DADFridayTimes.pdf
I assume the info had to be provided on the entry form in order to make it into the entry database. It’s a shame there are so many blanks…
This will be a very unpopular answer, but I don’t think it is specific bloodlines so much as specific types. The older style WBs with great bone, big feet, well sprung rib cage, you know the type. Not so refined, some had clunker heads… The modern WB with high blood are lighter to ride, excel in all the YH and materiale classes, are so much fun to watch, but they are lighter in bone, more Tbred type feet (high blood does mean more TB) - AND their movement is more extravegant. This all leads to a fancier, hotter, lighter horse - but one that is more prone to injury.
I think the G line keeps coming up because there are more of the “old type” still in existance.
[QUOTE=EquusMagnificus;6586627]
I agree. That is why I am looking at hardy bloodlines. They need to be preserved! What good does it to have high level athletes that need to be bubble-wrapped? The pendulum has got to swing back towards hardiness and soundness. (Not to say that there aren’t sound horses nowadays being bred of course!)[/QUOTE]
Well, I will point out that many folks consider Totilas the “crown of creation” as far as high level dressage goes. Yet he was not allowed to be turned-out due to risk of injury. So there is a classic example of a bubble-wrapped horse that everyone in the dressage world swooned over. :lol:
[QUOTE=DownYonder;6586694]
Well, I will point out that many folks consider Totilas the “crown of creation” as far as high level dressage goes. Yet he was not allowed to be turned-out due to risk of injury. So there is a classic example of a bubble-wrapped horse that everyone in the dressage world swooned over. :lol:[/QUOTE]
Exactly!! I think that’s crazy! I want the old, hardworking tough horse back!
Will also add that I have a homebred Oldenburg (actually 3/4 Hanoverian and 1/4 Arabian). She is now 11 y/o, is quite refined, and has always been a rather easy keeper - doesn’t require a lot of feed to maintain weight and has only been out of work due to injury or illness a few times over the years (and for very minor injuries - stone bruise, cut or scrape, etc.). She is quite sensitive, very forward and a bit hot, but has a great work ethic and tons of “try” in her - just a super riding horse for a good, confident rider.
I also have a German-bred WB gelding with very, very well-regarded bloodlines. He is a bit old style - a bit heavy and with a fair amount of bone and substance for his height. In contrast to the mare, he has had countless injuries/health issues through the years, and spent a fair amount of his 4-7 y/o years being either laid up or working very lightly while recuperating. He is now doing really well (we totally changed the way we manage him), but he isn’t nearly as forward as the mare - rather prefers to take life easy. :lol:
So given the choice between the two, I think most good riders who aren’t afraid of “forward” would prefer the mare. The gelding has a lot of natural talent the mare doesn’t have, but he isn’t near the workaholic she is.
I too am familiar with more than a few ‘old style’ WB’s who have had more injuries & suspect tendons than some of the new lighter horses. Though I don’t quite understand how some of these modern WB’s are lighter than your average TB. A bit odd when I look at them, and I’m a TB person if you will…but, why not just start out with a nice TB (oh yes, we don’t breed enough of those). At least they are likely to be sound 
There was one W/G-line guy that I wish wasn’t so fragile minded, he was a big tough old guy.
The Irish horses are lovely.
[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;6586691]
This will be a very unpopular answer, but I don’t think it is specific bloodlines so much as specific types. The older style WBs with great bone, big feet, well sprung rib cage, you know the type. Not so refined, some had clunker heads… The modern WB with high blood are lighter to ride, excel in all the YH and materiale classes, are so much fun to watch, but they are lighter in bone, more Tbred type feet (high blood does mean more TB) - AND their movement is more extravegant. This all leads to a fancier, hotter, lighter horse - but one that is more prone to injury.
I think the G line keeps coming up because there are more of the “old type” still in existance.[/QUOTE]
I get where you’re coming from, MysticOak, and I do agree about the G-line, but I don’t know that suggesting modern horses are less sound because of their TB influence is really fair. Yes, TBs can have poor feet, but many (particularly older TBs) are built to be pretty tough and take a much harder beating in race training than most warmbloods will have to in their performance careers.
I personally love to see the Shagya Arab influence for good feet and toughness. I’m hoping to eventually breed my Rocadero mare to Bonaparte N; great to see that there are still warmblood-approved stallions with heavy Shagya influence around.
My W line gelding by World Cup I is about as hardy as they come. He’ll be turning 20 years old, doing PSG work and looks fantastic. Even in full work he just needs a couple of flakes of good Timothy hay and rolled oats plus all day turnout. He’s not on any supplements. He hasn’t taken a bad step in the time I’ve owned him. I do give him Adequan injections bi-weekly as a preventative measure with the amount of work he’s doing, but I didn’t start doing them due to any issues. I can have a tough lesson, pull him out the next day, and not an ounce of stiffness. On top of his soundness, I’m constantly amazed by his work ethic and temperament. He’s just a really great horse all around, I got very lucky with that one.
He is definitely of the old type - big bodied, big boned, good solid feet! He went for stallion testing in Germany as a youngster and didn’t quite make the grade but I’m sure he was considered quite fancy in his time. He’s the type of horse I used to drool over and wish I could afford when I was a kid. Nowadays he’s considered quite an average mover, probably a 7. He’d NEVER be considered for stallion testing now. It’s quite amazing when you look at a horse like him and then look at the modern stallions and see how much warmblood breeding has changed in just 20 years.
Redmond, I’d love to see pictures of your guy. He sounds great!
I’m always happy to share pictures!
Here he is learning piaffe and passage for the first time 
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j114/jettgirl24/piaffe_passage.jpg
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j114/jettgirl24/piaffe_passage_2.jpg
[QUOTE=Tradewind;6586777]
I get where you’re coming from, MysticOak, and I do agree about the G-line, but I don’t know that suggesting modern horses are less sound because of their TB influence is really fair. Yes, TBs can have poor feet, but many (particularly older TBs) are built to be pretty tough and take a much harder beating in race training than most warmbloods will have to in their performance careers. [/QUOTE]
I will agree with this. I don’t think TBs per say are to blame. That’s a generalization I can’t live with.
I think breeding for early bloomers is more a problem, it’s the foundamental changes our sport has gone through that are driving factors.
Medecine advancements are a problem as well. Horses that would have been put down before, and now healed enough so they can breed and perpetuate their weaknesses.
I think we use TBs very wrongly here, a pure breed is much easier to breed from, that’s also some of the basis of the Holsteiner love for their motherlines. Concentrated and solidified genes, so to speak, are much more reliable than absolute hybrids. That’s why TBs and Arabs are used as improvers, as well as Trakehners. That’s why you can spot a Trakehner descendant from miles away, purebreds are so much more prepotent!
No, I don’t think TBs are the problem. We are misusing them and the data we can easily garner from their racing history, individually and as a whole.
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