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Harmony in the barn

In every situation i avoid conversation with people. If i have to i’ll exchange the basic pleasantries: “Fine thanks, how are you?” “Yes, it sure is pretty out today” without stopping what i’m doing or turning toward them. Usually everyone eventually ‘gets it’ and leaves me alone. It’s just never been difficult for me to blow someone off…to me, it’s perfectly natural. I guess i’m rude, but at least i’m consistant. And non-discriminatory.

What i don’t get in this particular discussion is why is it so objectionable to be given unsolicited advice by a lessor person. The parts of this that stick for me is a) disqualifying someone because they are a lesser horseperson and b) being irritated by advice. These two things feel self-aggrandizing to me.

For only about 10 years or so. Quite a large stable, like 80 horses (though some of them were lesson horses) and open to the public as well. Mostly people just asked questions, mostly i redirected them to someone who would talk to them. There were several unpleasant/unpopular boarders, and a few that were downright crazy people. A boarder mostly intersected the other boarders whose horses were in their same aisle. But there is safety in numbers in this large boarding situation as there are plenty of other folks to buffer and lots of space in which to get away from someone.

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If a glorified beginner came up to me and suggested something in a cute way it might be ok. But most of the time these personalities are the ones who say things like "ya know, I think your horse would be happier in a mullen mouth bit because I saw his head was way up in the air, or “why does your horse get so much grain, its too much grain, you change to XYZ brand, its much better for them and blah blah blah blah”

That wouldn’t annoy you? Wow, I wish I had your GAFF.

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Honestly, it wouldn’t.

In the horseworld, i know i don’t know a lot.
but in the dogworld, esp my area of expertise, i AM an expert. And all.the.time. new folks will sidle-up and offer suggestions. And occasionally, from-the-mouth-of-babes something interesting comes out. Mostly, i believe they are interest in a) self-promotion b) positive information. Never do i ever think that they are telling me something in order for me to fail. So, based upon my general opinion of advise, i think they mean well. And for that, i won’t fault them.

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This is where you lose me because:
~Everyone needs to learn somewhere.
~Some people like to regurgitate what they learn.
~and, what-IF s/he is right about a mullen bit, or too much grain?
~Who am i that i know everything there is to know?

it really, truly, does not feel like an insult to me that some other person suggests something other than what i am doing. I don’t understand how it could be insulting actually. How is it bad?

and, what is GAFF

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Those were real examples, and they weren’t right.

Because its 1 RUDE and 2 presumptuous to assume the person you are giving unsolicited advice to, doesn’t know what they are doing. Especially when that person owns the horse, and is a program with a trainer. Why does someone feel the need to go interrupt someone elses barn time just to comment about how they think they can make the horse “better” when they themselves can’t even canter a circle.

Why can’t those people just focus on their own horse? Why should we just accept that they have to come into our bubble and tell us what we are doing wrong (in their mind, which they aren’t even giving good advice). What gives them the right?

Nothing. It’s rude and makes people feel like garbage, and then makes them feel uncomfortable, awkward, and rude themselves if they have to say - hey back off.

GAFF is your Give A F Factor

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So you’re riding your horse, your horse is naughty that day. You go in the barn after, and theres the little know it all to tell you how your saddle is the reason your horse was naughty. That you need a new saddle, and you should use so and so because hes so much better than who use blah blah. When you know, your horse is just fresh, you have a saddle that fits, and are educated.

You don’t think that person is rude?

Are you that person at the barn?

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I’m a person with good enough social skills and emotional intelligence, who has spent a lot of time in volunteer groups, clubs, and group workplace situations. But I’m also pretty self contained and maybe a bit antisocial. I have a true horror of time-wasting people at the barn which includes the needy, the complainers, and the random advice givers. I have several real friends at the barn, but the rest I don’t engage deeply with.

However, I realize most women are socialized to take more responsibility for other people’s feelings than I do, and can have quite elaborate meet and greet rituals, and also find it hard to walk away from a conversation without feeling rude. Many women think of themselves as Nice People, at least on the surface, and feel guilty if they act in ways that don’t perform Being Nice.

So a needy annoying person in a barn full of people who have let their guard down and are being nice to each other can indeed be like having a really bad choice guest at an otherwise delightful dinner party… every night of the week.

For me, it’s not so much the stupid advice as the needy, tone deaf attempts to start conversations. I’m on the governance team for our club, but try to keep that part out of daily barn life. So some things that can potentially push my buttons are the folks that complain nonstop about the infrastructure or start interpersonal drama. That’s because those are things that could legitimately be demands on my attention, we need to know if the roof is leaking or the drains are backing up or Susie is letting her horse loose in the indoor, but I don’t need a constant stream of whining about life.

Unsolicited advice from newbies to experienced people isn’t that common here. I did have the pleasure of meeting a lower intermediate level rider here and being highly amused that she was being patronizing to me. There’s a point for upper beginners were they don’t know what they don’t know.

I am guessing that the problem with the OPs boarder is that she is intrusive, doesn’t build relationships, doesn’t recognize context, and is just talking to get attention like a toddler that keeps asking “what’s that? Why?” because he has learned adults will engage with direct questions. I expect the boarder would be equally annoying if she stood there and told you inane anecdotes and lies about her own horse.

Stupid barn advice about your own horse is annoying because it is calculated to engage you on the thing you most care about at a point you are trapped in the barn. Very often the advisor will sense when you are tired, frustrated, or dealing with a real issue and come latch onto you then. And that’s when advice can sound like criticism, and even if you think the advice is stupid, deflecting criticism when your defenses are down takes energy you may not have.

Needy people with poor social skills are so used to rebuttal that they have stopped reading subtle clues in reception.

Im not sure what to tell OP. The barn environment may adjust, people may begin to deflect her better. She may mellow as she settles in. She may also turn out to be seriously craycray in some way.

I find that barn rules directed at a whole group that are meant to handle one problem person to be very annoying and also ineffective because problem person never recognizes themselves in the rule.

And @eightpondfarm I totally admire your ability to stay focused in emergencies and crowded situations. But with all due respect, you’ve self identified in other posts as on the autism spectrum which can be a huge advantage in some ways :slight_smile: because you don’t seem to feel the overwhelming need to caretake the feelings of every.single.person in your radius.

Never underestimate the way most women feel they are responsible to caretake every body and can’t risk offending anyone. I mean, in worst case scenarios women get assaulted and even murdered because they were afraid to stop being pleasant.

The OP here indeed shares the feeling that it’s her responsibility to curate the emotional and social tone of the barn, that her adult boarders cant negotiate these things, and that she’s as responsible for bores and annoying guests as if she was hostess of a cocktail party.

It’s hard to offer a concrete plan of action without knowing and seeing the barn environment IRL. People may be able to freeze her out or integrate her more constructively and she may adapt. Or she may reveal herself to be obstructionist and confrontational. I would give it a few weeks at least to monitor.

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well…if you say so.
i guess i’ll chalk this one up to one of the things i don’t get, (that unsolicited advice is rude, and considered a personal affront when metted0ut by lower people/newbies and makes the person feel really bad …like garbage).
i would like to try to understand it though as it seems pervasive in horse-circles. Barn etiquette …someone like Emily Post needs to write the book.

NO, i don’t think it’s rude. I really don’t.

I guess i just really don’t care what people think about me and my knowledge/equitation/skill-set. If someone wants to follow me around an nag at me, they can. They won’t get much back though … i kinda just ignore people.
and lol, NO, i’m not that person at the barn. I’m not even that person in my area of expertise. I’m pretty much loathe to give suggestions/advice. Only if someone specifically asks me, personally, and only to the degree of their actual question. I’m not a mentor-type. Nor a teacher. I just do my stuff…if someone wants to watch me, that’s fine, but i’m not going to give a running commentary or keep responding to questions. Just. not. interested. in people very much. Wellll…that’s not true. Remotely, like this…on here, i learn lots of things and am interested. But live and in-person. nah.

so in this thread, i want to know why it is offensive to be told by someone what they suggest/observe. Where does it hurt you? Your wallet (if you are a trainer there in the barn)? Your self-esteem?

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It doesnt hurt, it annoys. It’s bothersome, like a mosquito.

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Ok, i totally get not wanting to be direct/confrontational. I get not wanting to say something that might hurt someone’s feelings, but you said it made people feel like garbage. That’s one of the things i’m sticking on. The other one is that whole part about lessor people. (Is that part like: “Just who do you think you are telling me what to do”? Or is it more like: “Don’t tell me stuff in front of other people because then they’ll think i’m even dumber than you are”)

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Didn’t say ANYTHING about lesser people. Please be careful misquoting. I said glorified beginner. Nothing about them being less.

I am relaying from my friends experiences. It makes them feel bad to have someone point out their horses flaws or issues, and then make comments that insinuate they are doing something wrong. I think thats a pretty standard response. Not everyone, in fact a lot of people do care what other people think. So luck you you dont. You win.

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Well, you did not call them less. But you allude to such when you say things like

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Im not alluding to anything those are just facts of the example. I never said anything that not being able to canter a circle is a bad thing. I never said being a beginner is a bad thing. Its the context of this discussion. YOU assumed or decided that. Reading way to into things that aren’t there. Calling someone a little know it all was referring to someones personality trait, not riding ability.

Not what I said at all. I have already said I never said anyone is lesser. Please stop putting words in my mouth. I don’t want to have to say it again.

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People are going to have a range of responses to intrusive advice or even outright malicious criticism. You’re going to feel more vulnerable if you are dealing with an actual horse issue or even if you’re just tired. Some days you can just laugh it off. And if the person giving advice is annoying in general, they will be doubly annoying giving advice.

I would certainly freeze out this kind of person.

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I don’t see where sharing unwanted advice is something a BO needs to address? It is up to the people she is offering that advice to, to step up and handle it. Most every barn that has enough borders has at least one of these people in it.

Now if she starts messing with the horses then you step in.

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I think BO feels she has accidentally let in a Problem Boarder who is making the existing clients uncomfortable. Without knowing the extent of the behaviour it’s hard to evaluate.

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Sooo, you are in a dance studio, where you have rented time to Practice Tango With Your Partner, which requires cultivating a certain state of meditation-like mind and body connection. You are in mid dance, and some random person inserts themselves and gives you Tango advise? No human with any social skills would do this.

It is delusional to think this comes from a good place. It doesn’t matter where they are in their experience level. You don’t interrupt people who are in a conversation. You don’t interrupt people who are dancing. You don’t interrupt someone who is in deep connection, or at least trying to get to deep connection with their horse. It’s just rude.

This is a social gaffe. They’re not asking questions, which would still be a rude interruption. They are offering unsolicited improvements to “correct” what they are watching. I am a barn owner and manager.
If this were happening in my barn, I would waste no time in taking someone aside and explaining to them that people really need quiet mental space to practice. That is what they are there for. Unsolicited comments are distracting and not helpful. If she has any questions about why someone has chosen to do something certain way, please wait until they are done and find a quiet time to ask them about it.
If that didn’t do the trick, I would have another discussion with them later and just spell it out that they are not to offer unsolicited advice.

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What I’m seeing in the world in general is that covid + current global tensions seemed to have diminished people’s ability to deal with this sort of interpersonal conflict.

Social media makes it really easy to create your own personal echo chamber and I think people forget F2F interactions don’t work that way.

Not saying that’s what is going on here; horses tend to attract a lot of bizarre personalities to begin with. But I believe everyone’s tolerance is lower than usual these days.

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Yes, and the barn is likely a bigger slice of many people’s social interactions especially if they work from home now.

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For those that still don’t get why this can be annoying to the point of extreme aggravation and can (sometimes) ruin a barn atmosphere, imagine the following scenario:

Mother on her 12th child, with all previous children doing well from health, social, and educational standpoints. Mom has that 12th child at the park playing with other children. Mom is allowing child to play while keeping an eye on it.

Random teenage babysitter who has never had a child of her own and may or may not Be a great babysitter, but seems to be very inexperienced from some of the clumsier/less streamlined care tactics she is observed using with her babysitting charge.

Random teenage babysitter approaches mom of 12 and starts telling her all the things she is doing wrong as a mother and all the things she should be doing to raise a better child.

No problem, just tell the babysitter to take a flying flip, right?

Well, what if mom is on her last nerve of the day, this 12th child is more difficult than the previous 11, she’s going through a divorce, she’s in the middle of a breakdown, or any other difficult situation?

Babysitter is rude, annoying, and stepping over several boundaries, just the same as less experienced horse people (especially those that naturally run at the mouth) do with more experienced horse people when they mete out unwelcome advice of questionable quality.

Being humble, and stfu so as to learn more is sadly a lost art on such people and it WILL hinder their education as it can make them appear that they are know it all who are uninterested in learning more.

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