This has turned into a really interesting thread! Question for you learning theory gurus: is there a technical difference between a cue/aid and an aversive stimulus used in negative reinforcement? Seems to me like most (properly used) cues/aids should not be aversive once the horse learns to respond to them.
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Excellent, thank you! Iāll definitely have to try this as I do a lot of continuous reinforcement but this makes a lot of sense especially with @Feathered_Feetās comparison of the slot machine!
I learned the ridiculous way that horses can bend continuous reinforcement to their desires and end up training the trainer. Treat for ducking head and stuffing head through blanket neck hole every day one day turned into ducking head and stuffing it under every item of tack. I can usually sneak the saddle on from the side without the āI made a trick. Gimme the paymintā look. Usually. 
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Oh horses are definitely training us every second they spend with us.
One of my early days re-riding was a sweet older gelding. I gave him a carrot when he came into his stall from his runout for grooming and tacking. After a few times, he came in, said hello, took the carrot, then walked back out to see if he could earn a second carrot by walking in again. He stood there in the runout watching me through the stall door.
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I had to draw a hard line yesterday, āYou are NOT wearing my helmet. Youāve had your boots, your saddle pad, your saddle, and your towel all on or over your head. No. No more hats today!ā The hurt look 
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An ellicit stimulus is a change in the environment that precipitates and is highly correlated with a desired behavior. As far as when a stimulus goes from averse to ellicit is probably a matter of opinion and can change daily.
For example - most people would consider an auditory stimulus (spoken word/sound) to be rather neutral but is it? I mean, think about itā¦your sitting on a bench talking with a friend and suddenly start hearing āmoveā¦moveā¦moveā¦ā finally, you look over annoyed, āWHAT?ā The individual gestures and repeats āmoveā. So you move over, the individual sits down and doesnāt say anything else.
Considering you were annoyed you may call that an averse stimulus. The speaker may have to say it less and less every time you are on that bench until he just gestures and moves over and finally you see him approach and you move over. When does the stimulus go from averse to neutral/ellicit?
It can also vacilate. I stated earlier that my horse is a forward horse so leg on is generally happily responded with moving faster but she went through a phase where she was muscle sore so leg on was sometimes met with ears back (not quite pinned), head shake and a reluctant speed up. So it went from say elicit simulus to an averse stimulus and when we changed her diet and sorted her out, it went back to an elicit stimulus.
There is also discrimminative stimulus - which is a stimulus that is a contingent type. So it is not directly related to a particular behavior but is coupled with an elicit stimulus.
For example, a horse can run and buck and spook and act a fool at the sound of the tractor and completely ignore your commands, but when you put on the halter and lead and use the same auditory stimuli (whoa, left, right, leg, whatever) it obeys. The halter/lead is the discrimminative stimulus.
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That is largely the issue though. Commercialization. The art of horsemanship in the free market are not good companions. The fast food phenomenon isnāt Just in āfast food.ā
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This is really interesting and important, and I have never delved into it at this level, so thank you.
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Nh is so robotic.
If you understand it, that is the benefit, if a lil horse is being a lil snot you can say these are the rules and those NH rules are Jesus juice until the horse obeys amd stops their fit.
Then you ride.
Key point 
then you ride.
When your horse does the rules you pass go and move on - and when they dont thatās when you wreck up horses.
Also thereās a million flavors of NH- they arenāt created equal.
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No a big NO. Natural horsemanship never mess up your horse. But a bad trainer who use abusive or cruel methods can make the situation worse.
Consider, much of NH is into hitting horses to make them scoot around, even hitting around the head, āto keep horses paying attentionā.
See Parelliās seven games very interesting videos, see Clinton Anderson at work.
When you base your training on hitting for attention and intended results, you are already starting your training on a questionable premise, that you can and should and will hit horses to get results.
When hitting horses is expected and part of your training philosophy as is in NH, NH becomes by definition bad training and makes you a bad trainer.
There are other, more sensible ways to train, really.
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I used āclickerā/treat training a lot on my younger horse for ridden work. (I donāt actually use a clicker, just an enthusiastic verbal āGood boy!ā) The first time he trotted over several trot poles I gave a big āGood boy!ā praise and he slammed the brakes on so fast I almost ended up on his neck as he looked for his treat.
I had a little concern that I might be creating a problem and was careful about being prepared when āGood boy!ā-ing. What actually happened in my case is that the extreme reaction occured when he was anxiously asking me āWas that right? Is that what you wanted me to do?ā As his confidence grew for each thing the treat seeking softened and eventually his response to āGood boy!ā was to puff himself up a bit with an āI know I am!ā and keep doing the thing, no carrot required.
I still use the āclickerā/reward training for some things under saddle and more for ground work. This particular horse has both the high food drive (Labrador Retriever in a horse suit) and the self awareness to connect his behaviour with the reward. My other horse hasnāt got the food drive, and the one before that couldnāt make the connection between his behaviour and the reward. He could do carrot stretches because he learned the behaviour by literally following the carrot, and would eventually tie himself into a pretzel shape if he thought I had a carrot in my hand.
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I agree. I know that intuitively, but it is super helpful to see it expressed so well in words.
Yes, I am glad someone else feels like WS shames folks if they ask a question.
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Can someone explain the WS hype?
Also like why does he tell people the horse should follow directly behind them instead of properly from the side? Thats a thing he teaches right?
It just seems mighty unsafe in my mind to have a horse directly behind me that could knock me down.
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Iāve seen his Leading with Energy videos and no, the horse is not directly behind him. His wife features in one of the videos with her stallion, Rey, and he is right there at her elbow/side.
That bothered me too, until I learned how useful it is in narrow spaces. One of my favorite trainers wants her horses to lead from any position; you put the horse where itās best for the circumstances, and expect it to stay with you.
As with everything else, for me and my mare, itās a work in progress.
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Thank you. That makes sense but itās definitly not something I would overthink - if I walk through something narrow they would follow or more importantly if Iām leading 2 they know they better wait and stand like a statue while the first horse gets dropped at their stall.
I had a client explain the WS leading thing that it was a way to bond with your horse and it should be that way 100% of the timeā¦
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iām often leading more than one horse at a time. If we have to all pass through a 1-horse width doorway or gate or aisle, i assign the order. Iām first of course, then horse #1, 2 and 3(if there are threeā¦usually i just do two at a time). I suppose i could let them sort it out, but i prefer to make that decision myself. It omits any confusion, and they donāt seem to have any problem with their assigned order.
Oooh that reminds me of a big Tb at my barn, years ago. His owner told us he was trained to follow behind his handler, on a slack lead rope. Problem was, for barn workers turning the horses out in the AM, he was also rambunctious and prone to bounce around, rear and strike out on a chilly windy morning. So no one wanted to take him. I retrained him to lead ānormallyā. No time to cater to every horseās weird kinks when you have to turn out 50 horses in the AM and do barn chores, and when not all the workers are experienced horse people.
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