It isn’t the methods that mess up the horse. It is the individual trainer doing it.
There are many Natural Horsemanship methods that produce well trained horses. The problem is when the unskilled take matters into their own hands .
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Well say abusive, not Cowboy then!
There are good, bad, and many indifferent trainers in every discipline, and wearing all sorts of different clothes.
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CA was a successful reining youth in Australia when young.
Now, youth is not that competitive and long ago reining was not that competitive and technical either, was in it’s infancy, has changed very much since.
Old reining still scored high the bumpy, scotching stops, horses high headed and open mouth, rushed lead changes with horses falling onto forehand and scooting into the next circle, etc.
CA afterwards became an NH trainer, or what passed for that in AU, the Jeffery method:
I don’t like that working so hard to have a horse accept tack, then turning it out to buck it off, when that is NOT what you want.
Ease the horse out, keep control, be sure the horse is accepting tack and cinches and all fine before moving on, much less let them learn to resist by trying to buck tack off initially!
Anyway, any method will work, some are more sensible than others.
CA was extremely successful as a clinician, made lots of money, but yes, his methods were rough and his horses stressed into watchfulness or shut down, no middle ground.
Most horsemen don’t want to go there, rather work sensibly with horses, give and take and making partners out of their horse, not mere subjects.
This past decade CA quit clinics and has been breeding and yes, as proficient as he was with what he was doing with horses, now learning to rein and train reiners and competing.
Reining today is extremely technical and it takes years to learn and develop an educated eye to what all is going on in a reining run.
At least CA has been smart enough to know what he didn’t know and go learn and do his homework, his ego didn’t get in the way of that, unlike other clinicians, that will never learn past what they already know, is below them.
A sensible trainer could use some of any NH trainer’s ways and do right for their horse, but plenty of CA’s original ways were way too unnecessarily rough and those that follow CA need to watch not to fall for that unnecessary roughness.
Much better to ask your horse to move for you lithe and graceful, like a dancer, not like a scattering scaredy critter, legs going every place.
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Who is CL? Sorry if that’s a dumb question.
No dumb question, dumb mistake of mine, sorry.
Thank you for calling that to attention.
LOL I just figured you were calling him Clinton.
hmmm. nope. when i envision the type in my head: they are western men, jeans, cowboy hat and microphone. Looking pretty cowboyish …and why they all have a drawley way of speaking, even the ones in missouri! beats me.
When I envision Cowboy Trainer in my head, it’s the honest to goodness cowboys around here, maybe we’re lucky in Canada and have a better class of cowboy?
I don’t know why this is bugging me so much, but here I am being bugged…I guess because it’s just plain not fair, to use the term as if everyone in a cowboy hat is abusive…that is just not true, many many more true horsemen in that group.
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I know actual horsemen (and women, for that matter) that wear cowboy hats, chaps and spurs and qualify by their appearance as what eightpondsfarm is referencing and they are better trainers than 99% of what I see out there, in arenas, back yards or on tv. And to a number the ones I know hate Parelli, if they even know who he is. There are a lot of wanna-be’s and cowboy hats are easy to buy. The real deals take a more thought process than seeing a cowboy hat and writing off a trainer. You know, profiling.
I’m offended on their behalf but I also know they have thick skin and could care less what she thinks. They know what they can do with a horse but they also know that many (most?) people can’t learn it. They try, b/c they want to help make a better life for the horses and also make a living using their talents, which don’t always include teaching. Or they quit trying to teach and move on to just making horses for people and they do very very well.
KBC, I understand.
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We went to a horsemanship clinic a few weeks back and I walked in to the arena carrying my bridle with my horse all tacked up and asked the clinician, should we start with groundwork? His response was nope, get on your horse and let’s see what we’ve got.
Some of the participants did ground work, most did not. It all depended on the horse and the need.
DH started out riding as he’s not been able to manage the right connection with his ottb who then would giraffe around a fair bit. Within a few minutes, clinician taught him a few techniques (soft ones) that clicked with DH and his boy dropped his head and continued on his way looking happy and comfortable. And it’s been that way ever since.
This clinician also hopped on almost every horse himself to see what he could feel in order to better understand the horse.
We were not encouraged to buy anything, there were no fancy terms used, it was all basic pressure and release the millisecond the horse responded. And clarity of the ask. That was one of the main points.
I learnt a lot just by watching and listening and some of what he told me has really helped my riding confidence (which was my main issue going in).
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I hear what you are saying, without getting hung up on the “cowboy” word. I see it with dogs all the time. Frequently men trying to train their puppies will not use food rewards or other positive reinforcement. They want the dog to “respect” them. This “dominance” of the animal is a very old way of training, and it has been proven time and time again by animal behaviorists that positive reinforcement is much more effective. But for some reason, men in particular, seem reluctant to adopt it.
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IMO, many use the term “cowboy” when describing a no BS, common sense approach incorporating a variety of time tested, traditional methods from many sources mastered over years of experience. The real “ cowboy” has learned to understand and read each horse progressing at that horses speed, not according to expectation or pre set schedule. Not into self marketing, their work talks for them.
Nothing at all to do with clothes or gender.
Most abusive rider I ever watched was a petite woman in tall boots, shad and top hat.
ETA…have to say it…anybody says “ real cowboy”? You know I envision Wangler jeans, big belt buckle, really good hat leaning against a bar with a Lone Star Longneck. Doubt he was much of a horse trainer either.
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I have seen “natural horsemanship” cause horses’ bad behavior to increase in cases where the owners/trainers took NH to the extreme, meaning backing away from any kind of repercussions for bad behavior, or correcting so gently the horse doesn’t understand it’s meant as a correction. For example a horse that was beginner safe to start realized after a year under his new owner that he could be pushy, because no boundaries were enforced in a way that made sense to the horse. The owner thought he was enforcing boundaries, but the corrections were so soft and minor that the horse (who was already a confident, stubborn boy) didn’t read them as direction at all, just as irritating. Another gelding got so that he would pull his lead rope out of your hands and run off whenever he pleased. The solution was quite simple: re-teach him to flex to a rope, then when he would start the pull-and-run, pop his halter rope and back him energetically for 20-40 feet. He gave it up quickly when he realized there were consequences, but his owners felt the quick jerk of the halter rope and upright, energetic posture of asking him to back vigorously was “too aggressive.” I get that you don’t want to be a predator, but in my opinion there’s no emotion or aggression there, just clear, direct leadership. Some people see that differently.
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I think the NH stuff as neatly packaged by some snakeoil salesmen appealed mostly to those female novices of ‘middle age’ with no real connection to horses and farm life and quite possibly some emotional baggage about how mean people are etc…
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yeah, i’d be one of those. You better not try doing this to my horse or you’ll have ME to contend with!
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All depends on the tone of voice, which is sadly not apparent on BBs.
Here’s an example. “I would not send my horse to that cowboy.” “I would send my horse to that cowboy in a heartbeat.” All depends on inflection.
That said, in my area, it’s usually a somewhat derogatory term for someone who doesn’t give a crap about the horse and will “ride the bucks out” or “make a lot of wet saddle pads” or is basically just rough and not just around the edges. If people are talking about someone they respect who also happens to wear a felt hat and jeans, they’ll say “trainer” instead of cowboy.
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then again, your horses would not need extreme reprimand?
I remember one time my sister went after her mare who nipped (bit) her when being saddled. After 10-20 feet I weakly suggested to stop…this was in the parking lot of a small show.
Maresy was alpha and did that all her life, mostly nipping air, but needed a reminder now and then that the world had boundaries.
that i think would depend on who is on the other end of the rope. If a macho type ‘cowboy’…then yeah, whatever little refusal would qualify for a bigger bolder reaction from the man in charge. If me, well…i seriously doubt the same refusal would qualify for any punishment at all. I don’t think that’s the way to handle any animal and expect the most out of them. Submission earned that way would not give me the relationship, the partnership, i crave with a horse.
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Yeah, I get your uncomfortable feeling. I also get that when my “alpha” needs a reprimand for manners temporarily forgotten, it’s got to stick with her 
It can be absolutely shocking for anyone who knows her and how sweet she is and how perfect her manners are, but if the correction isn’t big enough to leave an impression in her memory, she sees it as an open door to backslide further. Being in a situation where other people handle my horse, that absolutely cannot happen or someone would get hurt, and probably sooner rather than later.
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How about literally running your over? Is that a little refusal?
