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Heartbroken about the Hounds

Hunting
#21

[QUOTE=Beverley;4571366]
There is nothing disgusting about putting any animal to sleep. Always incredibly sad, but not disgusting in the least.

I do lose patience with the growing ‘trend’ of folks who think euthanasia is cruel. It’s usually the kindest thing you can do for an animal.

What is cruel is to ‘rehome’ your loyal old animals and force them at an advanced age to adjust to new surroundings and a new way of life- just so you can spare yourself a little bit of pain and sadness as the owner. THAT is what is disgusting![/QUOTE]

i dont think humane euthanasia is mean or disgusting at all. i didnt say that. i said breeding these dogs using them year in and year out for your personal pleasure and then killing them when they get old and useless because no one will step up to the plate or no one has given these dogs a chance is…well… dusgusting

Im very happy some hunts have offered some of their dogs up for adoption but for those who dont thoroughly investigate and look into each dogs temperment as a possible adoptee dog and for those who dont offer an adoption program i am thoroughly disgusted.

I think its sad for those who think its ok to euthanize these dogs. well yes i think its ok to euthanize them after all options and routes of finding a home of been completely exhausted. killing them is once again an easy way out to discard of what people dont want because its of no use to them anymore. Its one of these hidden, not talked about parts of the sport, much like slaughter of racehorses…because to me, people don’t want to take responsibility for what they have chosen to bring into this world as a living animal. oh yea…taking responsibility of such a living animal is killing it after you are finished with it.

Remember that as participants in such a sport…you are supporting such habits and you are supporting the killing of those who have given their all for your pleasure and enjoyment in the sake of “tradition” and how do such people repay them? by killing them and replacing them with new.

I dont think introducing an 8 year old foxhound into a new way of life is really disgusting. come on now, lets be real. As dogs advance, they slow down, they cant move as fast, and their energy level rapidly decreases. for most dogs; this is true. Sure foxhounds were raised in a different environment but i think transitioning to a home environemnt really isnt as bad as you all make it seem to be. Sure the transition isnt for all foxhounds but giving them the chance at a second career as a much loved dog is much better than setting their fate in stone of death by lethal injection. thats real kind to those who have been there for your pleasure and enjoyment for the past 7-8+ years of their lives

and no…im not saying the entire sport is like this…i’m pointing out those who back up my side of the argument.

#22

Thanks to everyone

Even for those I don’t agree with, I thank you for weighing in.

I certainly don’t have any opposition to euthanasia for dog, horse…or even person (thanks be to Switzerland) if that particular being’s life is so compromised by illness or overwhelming frailty. I also am acutely aware of my responsibility to not allow suffering for those animals I care for – pets or not – as I recently had to euthanize my dog when she developed Lymphoma and, though I miss her so much, I am thankful to not feel in hindsight that she had a single bad day.

What made me personally sad (not mad at my club!) is that I was worried the hounds were being killed simply because they could no longer hunt with the pack. It made me sad to think that I might have unknowingly been supporting the “use” of the hounds for my entertainment and when they were no longer “useful” they were being killed. I’m so low man in my hunt, pack fodder, seriously, most of the senior members would have a very difficult time figuring it out if asked my name. But I do love riding with the hounds and think those involved in my hunt are really lovely people.

I am so heartened to hear that the hounds being killed when they can’t keep up is not ALWAYS the case. So there is hope that I might be able to fund the start of a retirement fund for my hunt’s hounds. Having so little background with hunting I was afraid to even broach the topic without knowing more about how the hounds are cared for in retirement (or not) elsewhere. Again, thanks to everyone for contributing to the discussion.

I realize they are generally not suited to becoming pets. Seriously, I do. But I do hope, for those hounds that can still enjoy their days, I can help find a way to make it possible for them to enjoy their senior years in light or no duty, with or near the pack, in exchange for all their years of hunting.

Please wish me luck. If anyone has any suggestions on how to start, I’m all ears.

For everyone here, my best holiday wishes.

(to OneGreyPony, hope the person I write like is nice in other posts and to JSwan, I’ve definitely followed your opinions on other forums and value them, but you certainly wouldn’t know lowly me :slight_smile:

#23

You clearly do not know what you are talking about. You clearly have no experience with putting beloved animals down. You clearly don’t know anything about hounds or hunting.

As I said in my previous post- some hounds do just fine with being re-homed when their hunting days are over. Some do not. Putting them to sleep is hardly ‘discarding’ them, and shame on you for thinking that. What is ‘discarding’ them is dumping them at an animal shelter or ‘adoption’ center or ‘rescue’ where they might or might not find a new home- but in the meantime they are being punished by being dumped into unfamiliar surroundings.

You don’t exhaust all means of rehoming an animal if that would result in pain, suffering or misery for that individual animal. Again, because you know nothing about foxhounds, you can’t envision this concept, but it is a very valid one.

It is the our responsibility as foxhunters to do what is right for each individual hound. We aren’t out to do the ‘popular’ thing as expressed by the uninformed. We are out to do the ‘right’ thing.

#24

Well, for starters, learn more about hounds- ask your hunt if you can help with chores around the kennels, hopefully you can work up to helping with walking out and mounted exercise.

A kennel retirement setting would be great for oldsters- all of the same age group so there’s no bickering, a nice lodge with a nice big yard for exercise. Lots of things that can be done- just like keeping a hunting pack, though, it takes time and money!

#25

Oh, that doesn’t stop her in H/J, Racing, or Off-Course. Why would it stop her having an opinion here? She can’t even find the shift key; why would you think she could find a clue?

I had heard the same as the OP, that hounds are put down once they can no longer run with the hunt. As I’ve never managed a large pack of dogs trained to field hunt small animals, I really don’t know what the likelihood of successfully transitioning them to house pets is. In any case, even shooting them would be kinder than the shelter.

#26

I think the best way to get to know the hounds is to simply spend time with them. Like Beverley wrote - walking them, helping in the kennels, just do anything you can to get to know each hound personally. If you work - that might be difficult but do the best you can.

First and foremost - you will learn more about hunting and hounds. It is a tremendous opportunity.

Second, As you get to know each hound, you’ll see them as individuals. You’ll learn why the huntsman places certain hounds in different runs, for example. What you may be able to tell, (eventually) is why a particular hound is retired to a home, while another is put down.

The retiree may be pretty healthy but old, and adjusts easily to home life. The one put down may have developed a chronic illness or not be a good candidate for a private home, plus is very aged.

Just an example.

They’re individuals, just like pet dogs.

Talk to the Master and express your desire to learn more about the hounds and houndwork. If you’re new to the club, it may take you a while to get to know people and vice versa - so be patient.

And remember one very important point - the hunt club is doing its level best to take full responsibility for the lives of those hounds. You may not approve of them putting them down when they’re old or infirm, but they’re not dumping the hounds or taking them to the shelter. They ARE making sure the animals are treated humanely and kindly.

#27

Rehomed hounds are a lot of work, even in their old age retirement. Currently, we are on our 2nd old timer, an 11 yr. old, who easily made the transition to couch potato in a matter of days. But not all hounds can do this. That being said, he has to be led on leash to a very secure large pen for his daily sabatical and then led back to the house. NEVER is this guy let loose for a second because he would be off and doing what he loves and what he was bred to do…hunt for hours!

Folks unfamiliar with the hunting dog mentality are quite ignorant in their folly of making these scent machines a foofy house pet. These animals LIVE for chasing game, whether they are foxhounds, bird dogs, rabbit dogs or coondogs. Blink your eyes for a nano second and they are long gone. Old age not withstanding, they HAVE to do what they love doing and would probably die trying if given the chance.

Some hounds do not take retirement lightly and mourn the fact that they can’t go out with the rest of the pack. They fret and pace and worry themselves to a frazzle. They are being denied what they were born and love to do. Is that a peaceful retirement?

It is far less cruel to humanely put these old campaigners to sleep if they can’t mentally handle the softer life, than to keep them alive and miserable because they are confined in retirement.

#28

[QUOTE=Daatje;4571183]
No, working hounds are not pets, but it doesn’t mean they can’t be.

Tell that to my MIL’s hound, retired from Old Chatham, she’s the biggest mush of a couch potato I’ve ever met! Immediately adjusted from hunting life to pet life. It can be done, depends on the hound, I guess.[/QUOTE]

double here!!! my hound is total couch potato!!! and if the other dogs run something she simply stands in the yard baying!! it is toooo cute!!!

hounds make fine pets in the right home and all the hunts i know (i have 3 MFHs in my family) try to find homes for the retired hounds and most will keep these guys for a number of years to train the pups…

#29

At our hunt most are re-homed. They are usually VERY old and only have a couple of years or so left at the most. Good hounds are still good, even when they are old and slow. We keep them well past their prime. When they finally retire they go primarily to two members that both have large farms and the hounds can spend their last days there. A few have found homes with other members.

#30

Hunts vary widely in how they deal with the older hounds- and I for one am fine with euthanasia. It’s sad, but assures that the hound doesn’t suffer or have to cope with major change in lifestyle late in life.

Retirement can work well for a lot of them. I’ve known hard hunting hounds in the prime of life who, when the opportunity arose, could be found on a living room couch- or swiping chicken off the barbecue (hint, these would be the escape artists, yes there are hounds that can and will climb a twelve foot chain link fence if it doesn’t have a hotwire at the top).

If you want to read more about it- the Iroquois Hunt has a very active hound retirement program. Go to their web site,
http://www.iroquoishunt.com/

and then if you click on the icon at the top, you get to this page:

http://www.houndwelfarefund.org/

You’ll find some interesting info all 'round. There used to be a video of their blessing of the hounds from this year (I think), for which they formed a pack of retirees.

But I want to leave you with a thought that’s important to me. I really, truly, am disturbed by the often expressed sentiment that euthanasia is cruel. It isn’t. If you’ve held an animal while it is injected and slips away, you know how sad ‘you’ are- and if you have no prior experience, you might be alarmed by involuntary muscle twitches and/or noise that can be part of the death process- but really, what is wrong with an overdose of anesthetic that guarantees that the animal will NOT suffer, ever? When we ‘rehome’ animals- dogs or cats or horses of a certain age- are we really doing it for the good of that animal? Is that warm and fuzzy feeling the result of doing what’s really right- or is it just our rationalization to avoid our own pain and sorrow?

#31

:rolleyes: :uhoh: :rolleyes: Improve your choice of verbs. You look like PETA.

#32

Well, looking at it from a hound breeders view, here goes:

When we breed hounds we look at their hunting ability.

Are they easy to break from running trash.

Do they have good nose.

Good voices.

Run as a pack, no cutting, swinging, cheating to be in the front.

Are they quick enough to always be where they are supposed to be.

We NEVER EVER ask ourselves whether the hound will live to be 10 years old because most hounds are burned out at 7 to 8 years old.

They get arthritis and all of the other aches and pains of old men.

So normally that hound that retires will not live more than two years after retirement simply because it is not in the genes.

So it is not like putting down a hound that has 10 more years of comfortable life.

That said, if a hound has been a good hound I let them live out their time on my farm.

Now if you are breeding poodles for some little girl to grow up with, you don’t want to give her a poodle that will die when only 8 years old. You look at age as well as the other characteristics you want.

So back to hounds.

If you want to do something for the hounds, do your hunt a favor and DO NOT ask to work in the kennels. They do not care for and will not tolerate your pushy smart mouth.

Simply ask the MFH or the Huntsman if you can have the next old boy that they retire, that you would like a pet.

After you have tried that for a while, consider whether you want to ask your friends to do the same.

You might do OK or you might tire of trying find the old boy after he has wandered off on a fox track, three miles from home, across two highways and the river. On a rainy cold night.

The best way to work on a problem is to work on the problem. Butting into kennel management is not going to get you any friends and it will do nothing to help the hounds.

Now you may think that is too blunt for your liking, so I will try to put it in a kinder way.

If you asked me for an old hound, I would give you one.

If you asked me whether you could work in my kennel, I would have the sheriff put your but in jail for trespassing on my kennel property.

I run my kennel. You do not.

I can assure you that your huntsman will feel exactly the same.

CSSJR

#33

cssutton - good to hear it from the huntsman’s point of view.

#34

I have a retired hound on my couch as I type this. He does well with me and had I not taken him (or had he not adjusted well to life in my house) he would have a home for life as a farm dog at the hunt kennels. He would probably be a far from ideal pet for most people, but we can deal with his quirks and he gets along fine with my bitches. Our hunt tries to rehome retired hounds and hounds who simply do not work in the hunt (chase deer, etc) or they move to the “old folks home” at the kennels.

I came to foxhunting from the dog show world (which I am still an active part of). I have been in numerous situations where people kept decent numbers (often 20+) of dogs. Pack management is a difficult science. Keeping large numbers of dogs/hounds is very expensive. There is no ONE way to do things.

#35

Whoa - I hope she wouldn’t be so dumb as to do that!! I was thinking that since she is NEW to the sport and knows absolutely nothing about hounds or kennel management - it’s best to learn instead of making assumptions.

And SLW has it right too - the choice of words is… PETA like. So much so that I thought the OP was a troll.

As far as I’m concerned, I’d like pet owners to take an example from good sportsmen - and accept personal responsibility for their dogs instead of foisting them on society to deal with.

#36

My point is this:

When one goes to the huntsman and says: “Gee, I like that old hound, Finder. When you retire him, I would like to have him. I will feed him and take care of him as long as he lives”.

That would be appreciated.

When one goes at the club with the idea that the club is not operating its kennel in the manner you see fit, that you are going to “improve” (mettle in things you know nothing about), you are not going to be welcome and you are not going to improve anything.

That approach certainly will not be appreciated.

cssjr

Protect your privacy. Replace Google with IXQUICK at www.ixquick.com.

If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor’s right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

#37

As far as I’m concerned, I’d like pet owners to take an example from good sportsmen - and accept personal responsibility for their dogs instead of foisting them on society to deal with.

I totally agree with this. I have little tolerance for people that I hear who have given up dogs because they “peed on the carpet”. Or because “they couldn’t stand taking little fifi to the kennel when they went on vacation”. Gag me.

One of my coworkers just got a dog for her husband for christmas. She’s not a dog person, in fact, she’s never had a dog. What did she get him? She got him a chocolate lab puppy. And while Marley and Me was a cute book, it’s not so cute in real life. I have a feeling that 6 months down the road, this dog is going to need to be rehomed. I just know it.

ugh

#38

Just get one!

I agree that the best thing for the OP to do is GET a retired hound or 2 or 3 and be part of the solution. I feel we need to do this as part of the hunting fraternity. It’s a way to pay back. There might be challenges but all pets can be. I’ve found it very rewarding. I have a hound graveyard for those we took in and had a few years of happy retirement.

#39

Sorry, OT but these bits made me LOL because as I read this thread I am listening to my ancient standard poodle snoring on the couch and recalling her younger days spent escaping with my sister’s beagle. We often spent hours searching for the two of them as they chased after the neighborhood foxes. And yes, they did usually disappear when it was cold or rainy or snowy or dark!

#40

Iroquois Hunt and Hound Welfare Fund

I wanted to thank all who have mentioned the Hound Welfare Fund, a 501c3 which provides 100 percent of its money to the veterinary care and feeding of the Iroquois retired hounds.

We do indeed retire all of our injured and/or old hounds who no longer hunt, and we keep them at the kennel in their own retirement pack very successfully. Iroquois also generally only breeds one litter a year.

Quite a few of the Iroquois hounds also have retired to the home of one of our Masters. Incidentally, in our experience, many hounds do turn into nice pets (there are three foxhounds in my suburban neighborhood (not from Iroquois) who have done very well after retiring, and we ourselves have a former hunting beagle among our home pack of three). But, as with any breed, adopters need to consider the amount of room and exercise a retired foxhound needs as well as the individual hound’s temperament and personality. If anyone is interested, there was a good article about retiring former hunters in a suburban setting that appeared earlier this year in Covertside, maybe between July and October?

If anyone out there is interested in learning how we formed our Hound Welfare Fund and some options your hunt might be interested in considering, you can contact me at beagle52@aol.com and I’ll put you in touch with the people who founded the HWF.

Thanks also to Beverley for posting the link to the HWF website (www.houndwelfarefund.org)! The video she mentioned from the Iroquois Blessing of the Hounds is on the blog, which can be reached by clicking the blog link (Full Cry: A Hound Blog) on the menu to the left of the HWF pages. Once you reach the blog, search for “blessing” in the search box and you’ll find it!

Sorry to be a little quick in this response, but I’m heading out to hunt! I hope you all have happy, horse- and hound-filled holidays!

Glenye Oakford

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