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Heartworm preventative-questions

Around The Farm
#21

I have foxhounds.

All hunters use cattle or pig ivermec.

Not the Ivermec Plus for cattle. That will ruin a dog.

1cc per 10 lbs.

You can give it to bred bitches or puppies 4 weeks old so long as you give the correct amount.

Exact weight is not required except that one should be careful with puppies because you can’t guess their weight within a reasonable range very easily.

Not for collies. Not for any collie cross.

I understand that there are other breeds that are sensitive to ivermec. I think Aussies.

But as for vets losing their license for recommending ivermec, nonsense.

When the public first stared using it on dogs many years ago, the vets put out all of the rumors about it killing dogs, making them zombies, etc., and then went into their back room and dosed clients dogs with ivermec.

Do not use Ivermec Plus for cattle and do not give it to any collie cross or similar dog unless you know that particular breed is not sensitive.

I do not like or use an ivermec paste because it is very difficult to control the dosage.

Ivermec is not just for heartworms. That is a bonus. The basic reason for using it is to control hookworms and about all else except tape worms and whips.

CSSJR

If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor’s right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

#22

[QUOTE=dalpal;4155412]
I have a dog that came to me HW positive four years ago…still have her. I opted for the slow kill of just giving HG Plus. I personally don’t believe in loading a dog’s system full of poision and crating them for three months. I know many dogs who have died from the treatment and I wasn’t about to go there. She’s healthy, happy and has shown absolutely no signs of being sick in four years. BTW…the slow kill method was recommended by my equine vet (who also owns a small animal practice)…the small animal clinic had a fit and fell in it over the thought of slow killing heartworms. I’m just not going to put a dog through that hell for three months.

I don’t know if your vet’s client opted to do no heartworm meds at all, but there are risks to doing the quick kill treatment as well. My vet’s staff probably thinks I’m an ass too, because many times I will say no to all the wonderful drug, vaccine suggestions that they have.

The other issue with HW pills…I just bought a box of 12 for 92.00 at the vet’s office. That’s 7.66 per pill. The average joe who just lost his job or has a minimum wage job may very well not be able to afford a box of Heartworm meds. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a big believer of…if you can’t afford it, dont’ have it…but that doesn’t change the reality of things.
I can get the same box online for 69.00…still 5.75 per pill. If these meds were made more affordable, more people would probably buy them for their dogs. I hate it that so many dogs are HW positive, but I do somewhat understand WHY that is the case.[/QUOTE]

I meant to add that for that price, you can buy a large bottle of cattle ivermec that will last one dog for life.

Maybe two dogs for life.

The easy way to give it is to remove the needle from the syringe. Use something like a small nail to punch a hole in the rubber cap. Now you can press the nipple on the syringe into the hole in the rubber. Invert the bottle and draw your dose. The rubber, if done properly, will form a tight seal around the nipple so that none will leak while you draw your dose.

CSSJR

If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor’s right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

#23

:yes: I see this debate being like neutering a cat. You can (for lack of a better term) “ball band” a young male just like you do with calves. I asked around about this when we were looking to neuter our cat and got some very strange looks! It’s safer, there is less risk of infection and no down time for the cat. I wish more vets supported these sorts of treatments for barn cats, then we’d have fewer and healthier animals! But then they wouldn’t get the $125 from me for a surgery.

I love my vets, they are large animals who also do small and I have seen one say to another client that she could sell them something for their horse’s leg (I can’t remember what was wrong) but a honey/sugar poltice would be better and cheaper. I wish all vets thought about the owners & animals first and their pocket books second. (and yes I know it’s hard to make money as a vet! It’s also hard to make money in allot of jobs.)

I don’t know why I can’t find the Quest site but Quest Gel wormer is still moxidectin (avermectin) NOT ivermectin (that’s kinda the point of quest…). According to the oh-so-reliable recourse Wikipedia :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]Herding dogs may be avermectin-sensitive, but avermectin sensitive dogs can tolerate standard doses for heartworm prevention. Moxidectin is apparently safe for collie breeds. As a heartworm preventative, moxidectin can be injected once every 6 months under the brand name Proheart6./QUOTE]

#24

ivermectin

1cc per 10lbs is an outrageous high amount

#25

You are absolutely correct.

That was a mental lapse that I hope caused no one to dash out and dose his dog this morning.

The correct amount is .1 or 1/10th cc per 10 lbs.

I do apologize.

And thank you for catching my mistake.

CSSJR

#26

ivermectin

Moxidectin / proheart has been pulled off the market in the U.S. for several years now.

Moxidectin is in Advantage multi though

Ivermectin dose for heartworm prevention is0.006 to 0.012mg/kg - ivermectin comes in 10mg per ml

so you take your dogs weight in pounds and divide by 2.2 to get the kg then multiply by that number by 0.006 and then again divide by 10. (that will give you the amount of ivermectin that is given orally every 30 days). Do not use expired ivermectin as it may not be effective - standard 100ml bottle will last you longer than it is in date for. :slight_smile:

#27

ivermectin

Moxidectin / proheart has been pulled off the market in the U.S. for several years now.

Moxidectin is in Advantage multi though

Ivermectin dose for heartworm prevention is 0.006 to 0.012mg/kg - ivermectin comes in 10mg per ml

so you take your dogs weight in pounds and divide by 2.2 to get the kg then multiply by that number by 0.006 and then again divide by 10. (that will give you the amount of ivermectin that is given orally every 30 days). Do not use expired ivermectin as it may not be effective - standard 100ml bottle will last you longer than it is in date for. :slight_smile:

#28

Actually, Proheart (moxidectin) has been returned to the US market recently.

As far as ivermectin, I’m not certain that an appropriate dose of Ivomec injection would cause a veterinarian to lose their license - we certainly use it in small animals on a fairly regular basis - but I think that recommending that a client attempt to administer ivermectin paste that is manufactured, dosed for, and labeled for horses borders on malpractice.

#29

Which is a whole lot less than the dose you provided above…:eek:

#30

Dear God.

I’ve done barn cat castrations cheap or free for good clients for years.
I consider banding a tom to be grounds for charges of animal cruelty.

2 Likes
#31

[QUOTE=McVillesMom;4162079]
Actually, Proheart (moxidectin) has been returned to the US market recently.

As far as ivermectin, I’m not certain that an appropriate dose of Ivomec injection would cause a veterinarian to lose their license - we certainly use it in small animals on a fairly regular basis - but I think that recommending that a client attempt to administer ivermectin paste that is manufactured, dosed for, and labeled for horses borders on malpractice.[/QUOTE]

No veterinarian you know and not one single MD you know uses anything off label?

I note that you will graduate in 2011. That looks like you are about 22 years old maybe?

Stick around a while. Off label is practiced every day.

DMSO.

Ivermec

Pancur.

Many others.

CSSJR

#32

She’s right, though.

All a client would have to do would be to poison the dog and call a lawyer–who would shred the DVM in a New York minute–

“you admit that there is an approved product for dogs, and yet you advised the client to use a horse drug on her precious little Cuddles??? In the interest of saving a few cents? A sweet dog who was a beloved member of the family?
For shame!!”

#33

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;4162110]
Which is a whole lot less than the dose you provided above…:eek:[/QUOTE]

No. Read “above” again.

I corrected my original to .1 or 1/10th cc per 10 lbs.

So a 50 lb dog would get 5/10 cc, a 60 lb 6/10, etc.

I estimate that since Ivermec came out in the mid 1980’s that I have given close to 5,000 doses to my own hounds, maybe a few more, maybe a few less depending on my average number of hounds; usually 20 to 25 not counting puppies.

I do apologize for the 1 rather than the .1.

CSSJR

#34

Yes, and I quoted and commented on your egregiously overdosed original.

Even your corrected dose is higher than necessary for heartworm prophylaxis, although likely to be within tolerated limits in most dogs.

I’ve treated enough ivermectin overdoses to think that it’s a good thing for the average dog owner to be dinking around with.

(Though I do understand the economies of scale to be taken into consideration when dosing a pack of hounds.)

#35

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;4162141]
She’s right, though.

All a client would have to do would be to poison the dog and call a lawyer–who would shred the DVM in a New York minute–

“you admit that there is an approved product for dogs, and yet you advised the client to use a horse drug on her precious little Cuddles??? In the interest of saving a few cents? A sweet dog who was a beloved member of the family?
For shame!!”[/QUOTE]

Do you mean to tell me that no veterinarian is using Ivermec on dogs?

I know better.

I do realize that there is a difference in the vet doing it himself unseen by the client and the vet telling the client to do it.

But the fact remains that so many have done it for so long that it is well established that except for collies and collie crosses it is perfectly safe even for puppies 3 to 4 weeks old.

Of course there are many vets that will not tell you what they do because they would lose the money.

By the way, in owning hounds for 50 years, I have dealt with a few vets.

In addition, my daughter is a vet.

Actually she does not like Ivermec. She finds Pancur to be much more effective in her practice. However, the downside of Pancur is that you must dose 3 consecutive days and that gets to be a little troublesome when you have a lot of hounds.

Obviously not as big a problem in a clinic staffed with good kennel people.

So I use Ivermec and then once a year I go the Pancur route.

CSSJR

If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor’s right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

#36

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;4162163]
Yes, and I quoted and commented on your egregiously overdosed original.

Even your corrected dose is higher than necessary for heartworm prophylaxis, although likely to be within tolerated limits in most dogs.

I’ve treated enough ivermectin overdoses to think that it’s a good thing for the average dog owner to be dinking around with.

(Though I do understand the economies of scale to be taken into consideration when dosing a pack of hounds.)[/QUOTE]

Ivermec is used for more than heartworms.

Ear mites are a real problem in a large kennel. The old ways of treating it were a pain in the neck. The ivermec dosage I use eliminates ear mites.

There are some forms of mange that it will eliminate.

Since I started using it 20 years or so I doubt that I have had 5 cases of skin problems.

Are you a DVM?

CSSJR

If we do not wish to lose our freedom, we must learn to tolerate our
neighbor’s right to freedom even though he might express that freedom
in a manner we consider to be eccentric.

#37

No-- I mean that for heartworm prophylaxis in the average pet, the DVM is far more likely to recommend a product produced and packaged specifically for the purpose. Which is what the FDA wants us to do.

I do realize that there is a difference in the vet doing it himself unseen by the client and the vet telling the client to do it.
Very much so.

But the fact remains that so many have done it for so long that it is well established that except for collies and collie crosses it is perfectly safe even for puppies 3 to 4 weeks old.
Oh, I’m pretty convinced about the safety–I had two dogs in the original clinical trials for the stuff.

By the way, in owning hounds for 50 years, I have dealt with a few vets.
Well, I haven’t been a vet for 50 years yet, but I’ve treated my share of hounds. :smiley:

Actually she does not like Ivermec. She finds Pancur to be much more effective in her practice.

depends on what you’re treating for, doesn’t it?
Fenbendazole doesn’t do much for heartworm prophylaxis.

1 Like
#38

drug usage

Not worth debating about… forum was started for a simple question that has long since been answered. Working in the vet field for the past 11 years of my life I have come to learn that people are going to do what they want to do no matter what you tell them. You can only try to educate these individuals but ultimately they are going to be the ones self medicating in the end. It isnt about making money but about the welfare of the animal. Working in a low cost clinic for 4 yrs now I have seen my share of idiocy all in the name of saving a penny.

We neuter cats for $20 and spay for $40

Dogs range from $40 to $100 depending on size

Heartworm prevention is sold for $25 and up depending on product and that is for a 6 month supply

If you cant afford that you shouldnt have a pet anyways. Im tired of people pinching pennies and giving advice they have no business giving.

Unless you have a correct dosage for a product dont post it - you may end up harming someone elses beloved pet.

The ivermectin dosage has been pulled from the Plumb Vet Drug Handbook.

#39

I’m aware of that, but we were discussing employing it for that purpose.

Ear mites are a real problem in a large kennel. The old ways of treating it were a pain in the neck. The ivermec dosage I use eliminates ear mites.

I love ivermectin for treating ear mites.
But they’re relatively uncommon in pet dogs.
At least not common enough that I’d be treating them monthly.
Again, I can see the utility of that approach in a kennel/pack setting, though.

There are some forms of mange that it will eliminate.

I know that, too. And that’s where it can get dicey with the sensitive individuals.

Are you a DVM?

Ayuh.

1 Like
#40

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;4162201]
No-- I mean that for heartworm prophylaxis in the average pet, the DVM is far more likely to recommend a product produced and packaged specifically for the purpose. Which is what the FDA wants us to do.

Very much so.

Oh, I’m pretty convinced about the safety–I had two dogs in the original clinical trials for the stuff.

Well, I haven’t been a vet for 50 years yet, but I’ve treated my share of hounds. :smiley:

depends on what you’re treating for, doesn’t it?
Fenbendazole doesn’t do much for heartworm prophylaxis.[/QUOTE]

Well, I guess I was not very clear.

Ivermec will treat worm infestations. End ear mites and help with skin problems.

An additional bonus is that it will prevent heartworms.

Of course, if the dog is already loaded with adult heartworms, it may kill him so one needs to know whether the dog is already infested.

So why take a drug for heartworms, another for intestinal worms, another for ear mites and another for a skin problem?

Life is too short unless you have nothing else to do or unless you are a vet selling the stuff.

So I am going to give the dog a shot of ivermec and go on to the next project.

CSSJR

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