Help with LGD Qs

[secuono]

Pups were born sometime before April 23rd.

Some of you guys are saying you can sleep through it, that’s why it’s so weird that they bark all night. I can sleep though roosters crowing at 4am, took time to get used to, had 12 at one time. They live right under the bedroom window, so they are loud. Even the past guineas I eventually didn’t hear.
There’s no way of knowing if I can sleep through a LGD barking w/o having one and trying. There’s a huge market near me for dogs who can live with the animals I have, so it won’t be a total lost cause.

The fence that is there is what came with the house, I don’t have 5 grand to install a 7ft fence with 1ft in the ground as well.
There’s 6 strands of hot wire on shared neighbor fence, I cannot put the hot wire on their side, so I also cannot put up 60in woven wire.
There is an easement I have to deal with also, which I rather not dump any money into, since once the house is renovated and the market goes up a bit, we will sell it and upgrade.
I made a sheep paddock out of pallets in the easement, since I can easily move it if need be. Then there is field fencing on my side of the easement down around and back up to the house. There used to be the same fencing on the other side of the critter yard, but it was rusted, missing and smashed down. I took that all off, added 4ft chain link and then on the outside, horse side, there’s 3 lines of hot wire. The ground in the critter yard is a full 1.5ft up, so from the horse side, the fence is a total of 5.5ft tall.
The second sheep paddock is part field fencing, pallets, barn and then 6 lines of hot wire. Behind the hot wire is 2 wood boards at the top and 3ft of mesh fencing along the bottom.
The fox/coon are coming from the poll gates, have a total of 4 of them. Two are at the back, one is full 6 strands and the other is 3 strands of moveable gate wires. The other two are at the driveway, I still need to add 3 gate wires to that.
Pics to help. They are older pics, since they were taken, more strands have been added.

[Bluey]

I would say, for your situation, the few acres you have for the dog to roam, you are better off being the one that protects your critters, not want the kind of large dog to do so.
The dog may be more of a liability, not being in the right place for it, not enough to do, too small # of acres to roam in.

Good that you asked, now you have enough information to re-evaluate and re-consider what exactly would fit your situation best.

[secuono]

I know several poultry people who have GPs in 2 acres down to 1/3 acre 24/7 with weaker fencing than I do. So that really isn’t going to discourage me.
My pony broke through literally every fencing known to man, until he met the electric fence for the first time. Now he’s an angel and stays where he is supposed to me.

[AlmostDun]

I do hope you have good insurance. These animal are NOT pets. They can be dangerous if you don’t know what you are doing, and sometimes even if you do.

Out west there was a situation a few years ago involving a sheep herder and a mountain bike race. Some idiot organized a race through public grazing land. Nobody bothered to alert the sheep herder, so he didn’t know to move his sheep. End result was that one of the racers plowed through the flock; the LGD with the herd pulled her off her bike and mauled her.

When I was a callow youth I had the opportunity to hang out with Ray Coppinger, who was doing a lot of work with Maremmas and LGD at the time. One of Ray’s bitches got out one time and started knocking over trash cans in the neighborhood. A passing jogger attempted to discipline the dog; the dog bit the jogger pretty hard. Another time a male dog, which objected to being moved away from a bitch in heat knocked Ray down and went for his throat. Ray told me he defused the situation by whimpering like a scared puppy. Otherwise the fight would probably have continued, and Ray would have lost. So much for alpha rolls in the real world.

Seriously, if someone with the experience of the Coppingers has these kinds of accidents, the average suburbanite should think long and hard about whether they can handle a LGD.

[cowboymom]

One thing-I do think that you can have a guardian dog there and have some success. You may have to beef up the fences but if I were you I would instead look into an adult dog, from a rescue or whatever. I think the job is a good one for the right dog-I understand being annoyed and frustrated and needing the help.

Where I want to encourage you is that you sound (SOUND, your words and tone here) very frustrated bordering on combative. I think if you proceed with a pup there is going to be a lot of pressure on that dog, judging from your tone here. I’d like to hear more of a “in time things will improve while we learn and progress” sort of thing here, not a come he!! or high water tone. The dog is going to learn, you are going to learn, chickens and ducks will appreciate you both working together. An older dog is going to take to it better than a pup. For what you’re looking for I think an older dog is perfect-it’s not too much, it’s enough. I know you have to look further and that is frustrating but it’s time and money well spent to get the right dog for this job. Down the road, this dog will train your next pup-it’s an investment. 5 acres for a young dog might be way too small-for a mature dog it’s just about right if there is a job. We had 10 acres before, now we have 16, my dog protects where the animals are but likes to patrol out. He can live without patrolling, he’d love to do it as much as possible but he lives within his limits. He’s almost two now and he is slowing down.

I can’t tell you enough, I was seriously trying to figure out how to record my dog last night for you, they will sometime bark continuously all night or all day or until. Sometimes they’re tired or relaxed and they don’t bark at all. Or once really loudly at 2 am…Only you know your tolerance. My dog sometimes wakes me up with the barking but I easily fall back asleep b/c then I am able to think how safe we all are-it’s a mind game. It’s not a yappy bark, it’s a low muffled resonant roaring sort of bark… travels far. I youtubed it to see and I couldn’t find any that barked like the ones I know, they were all town dogs and yappy or real working dogs and quiet for the camera.

My GP killed three chicks this spring too, FWIW… :lol: He’s bombproof with the big chickens but we failed to tell him the chicks were not snacks.

[ldaziens]

I am really begging you to go to the WorkingLGD Yahoo group and ask for advice on this. Here is the link -
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/workingLGDs/

I am sure that you feel like we are all trying to rain on your parade, but please understand that those of us who have LGDs – and especially those of us who have gone through the puppy phase – KNOW that, based on everything you have written; this is a setup for failure.

I took the time to look at your fencing pictures, and I can tell you the thing that jumped out immediately to me was that you have a lot of solid surfaces along fencing - example the pallets. A coyote, LGD, or Big Cat will put their front paws on the top of those pallets and jump right over. You mentioned chain link - chain link is the easiest fencing in the world to climb over - for dogs and predators. Hot wire works for SOME LGDs, but many will just take the shock – and go right out.

You said, “There’s a huge market near me for dogs who can live with the animals I have, so it won’t be a total lost cause.”

I’m sorry, but there are tons of LGDs in rescue all over the country. There really ISN’T a huge market, and based on what you have written, what you are going to have is a big, young LGD with a history of escaping and killing birds – pretty much a death sentence. People like puppies and smart people like proven adults.

You said, “I know several poultry people who have GPs in 2 acres down to 1/3 acre 24/7 with weaker fencing than I do. So that really isn’t going to discourage me.” Have you talked to them about what your plans are and your current situation?

One important thing you must understand is that these dogs do NOT train themselves – IF you have a solid, proven adult; it MAY train up a youngster, but some adults will just sit and watch puppies chase and maim stock, so that isn’t 100%.

I beg, beg, beg you to go to the working LGD yahoo group – please! If you are going to proceed in this, you owe it to that puppy to educate yourself and at least try to set it up for success.

My tip to you is to PLEASE consider getting electric poultry net fencing to go around your critter pen. This would solve most of your problems – as long is there is not a way for a predator to climb over and drop into your pen. And, it won’t protect against birds of prey. But, it will certainly keep out varmints.
Here is a link - Premier 1 and Kencove are the 2 best net fence providers

Net Fence -
http://www.premier1supplies.com/fencing.php?mode=detail&fence_id=30

If you aren’t going to move it around a lot, I highly recommend the Premier 1 PermaNet fencing. It is very solid and less likely to sag. But, it is heavier, so it takes two people to move, and it is more expensive. I have the product below, but now they also offer a PermaNet Plus with more posts. If I was starting again, I would probably go for the PermaNet Plus.

http://www.premier1supplies.com/detail.php?prod_id=20197&criteria=permanet

Net Gate -
http://www.premier1supplies.com/detail.php?prod_id=17227&criteria=net+gate

Premier 1 has EXCELLENT customer service. If you call them and explain your setup, they will walk you through different options. They will tell you what will and won’t work, and they do not try to sell you stuff that you don’t need. The people at Premier have actual farms where they use all of their stuff, and they also have LGDs ***A big bonus is that this stuff is totally portable, so you can take it with you when you move.

Lastly, you said, “The issue is there are no other working dogs in my are for a price I can pay. Heck, no working dogs other than this breeder with this mix. And others are all in central USA and I am not having my pup shipped.”

There are tons of LGD breeders in your area. You are not getting a working dog; you are getting a puppy. A bargain puppy is seldom a bargain. The price you pay is the least of the expense. These giant dogs are extremely prone to hip dysplasia – has this breeder had both parents hips evaluated via OFA, or preferably - PennHip? Other health testing recommended for the breeds?

I promise you that there are adult LGDs within driving distance to you – including rescue dogs. Even if the adult hasn’t been around poultry, an adult is much easier to train than an LGD puppy. My two adult house dogs understood very quickly that the birds were not to be played with or bothered, but it took the full 2 years for my LGDs to be 99% safe around my birds. But, I really can’t, in good conscience, recommend an adult given your fencing setup. In looking at that 6 string fence, I think they will be right through it; how does your neighbor feel about that?

Whether or not you are on a budget, the electric net fencing is your best option given your setup. Even if you get the LGD, you are going to need that net fencing to keep your birds safe from the LGD. My dogs patrol around the bird area.

Again, please go to the Working LGD Yahoo Group. Please. Especially if you are going to proceed with getting this puppy, you must educate yourself.
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/workingLGDs/

You can also do some reading up here – The Daemon Sisters is a very accurate account of dealing with LGD puppies –
http://lgd.org/stories/DaemonIntro.htm

[Gloria]

I agree that if your heart is set in a LGD, get an older one, not a young puppy. That is really selfish of you really; you are setting this young life up for failure.

I think the reasons I have such a good experience with my Maremma, despite being a first time LGD owner, are,

1. My Maremma was more than one year old when I got him, and he had guarded along side with his working parents horses, chickens, guineas, and whatnot since he was a young pup.

2. I told the breeder I got him from that this is our very first LGD, and they recommended among three of their dogs for sale this particular one. They told me the others would not be suitable for us - and I am so incredibly glad I listened. He has plenty of instinct and experiences we need, and yet easy enough a temperament for us to handle - and mess with (I love playing wrestling with him… I know I know I was told by the breeder not to do that but well, I like it.).

[2foals]

I can sympathize with the OP. When I was growing up my chickens and rabbits were routinely massacred by neighbors’ dogs or picked off by foxes, hawks and weasels. It was heartbreaking! Each time it happened we’d reinforce or enlarge the fencing, add more electric, etc, but the predators always seemed to be a step ahead. They always found a new way through.

When we moved to our current farm, my DH suggested we get a few chickens; I said “no way,” and I explained to him how vulnerable certain critters are. Husbands being husbands, we soon had a flock of laying hens set up, but this time around we had a Great Pry/Anatolian cross pup on the farm. In 10 years of free range chickens we have yet to lose a chicken to a predator. Of course, my DH thinks I just made up a bunch of stories because I didn’t want chickens. We now also raise sheep and have had continued success with predator control.

The dogs DO bark a lot, and it can be annoying. Broken record type barking occurs regularly! They also eat a lot and like to sleep in the landscaping, also annoying. They also are not necessarily an instant fix. But I can completely understand how someone whom an LGD was not technically a great fit for would be willing to make a commitment to put up with the annoyances and make property modifications to have the benefit of predator control. (You might have to seriously reinforce your fence to keep an LGD in). I understand how traumatic it is to see your beloved small animals being killed by predators. Still, you don’t want to be turning a dog over to a rescue–there are a ton of these dogs in rescues. Check out www.nasrn.org

[ThisTooShallPass]

Yes, they bark! My neighbors have one. In town! Why do you think the time on my posts are so late at night? I cannot sleep through the barking!

[secuono]

Small update, no arguing about it. Thanks.

Here’s my new pup! Her name is Śnieżka. She has two pools and a tarp that gives her 85% shade all day long as well as a tree, coop and hutch. Doing wonderful w/all introductions so far.

She won’t be put into a rescue, how can I guarentee that, you ask?
Please meet; Killer, Nightmare, Devil, Death…Chillie, our Chihuahua mixed w/Schipperke.
She has killed a bare minimum of 45 of my chickens, some very valuable and others set for FC. I threatened to rip her face off many times, but in the end, she’s still here.

[EqTrainer]

Congrats on your cute puppy. While for the most part I agree with everything said here, I do want to add that I have a Pyr/Dalmation who both guards everything and everyone on the farm AND is a big hairy spotted pet. He does not bark unless he means business. So five out of seven nights he is silent. If he says WOOF I get up and look because he is not joking. He never just barks and barks and barks. Could be the spots, I dunno. He is fantastic.

[MelantheLLC]

@secuono;6367912

Small update, no arguing about it. Thanks.

Here’s my new pup! Her name is Śnieżka. She has two pools and a tarp that gives her 85% shade all day long as well as a tree, coop and hutch. Doing wonderful w/all introductions so far.

Mwahaha, I can see that pyr look in her eyes already. :lol: Plotting her path to world dominance among the coyotes.

She’ll be lovely. Now you know what to expect, you’ll forgive her everything, and she’ll reward you tenfold.

My pyr boy just left to spend summer at the beach. I miss his bark. And so do the local ravens–there was one here this morning, mimicking him. Finally flew away sadly after no one answered, changing back to some random raven sounds.:sadsmile:

[secuono]

[QUOTE=EqTrainer;6368015]
Congrats on your cute puppy. While for the most part I agree with everything said here, I do want to add that I have a Pyr/Dalmation who both guards everything and everyone on the farm AND is a big hairy spotted pet. He does not bark unless he means business. So five out of seven nights he is silent. If he says WOOF I get up and look because he is not joking. He never just barks and barks and barks. Could be the spots, I dunno. He is fantastic.[/QUOTE]

Pic? That must be quite a site!

[secuono]

[QUOTE=MelantheLLC;6368053]
Mwahaha, I can see that pyr look in her eyes already. :lol: Plotting her path to world dominance among the coyotes.

She’ll be lovely. Now you know what to expect, you’ll forgive her everything, and she’ll reward you tenfold.

My pyr boy just left to spend summer at the beach. I miss his bark. And so do the local ravens–there was one here this morning, mimicking him. Finally flew away sadly after no one answered, changing back to some random raven sounds.:sadsmile:[/QUOTE]

Yea…she has this look at me, looking at my face, slightly head down and can see the whites of her eye just slightly at the edge…like a “pft, I know what I’m doing, do you?”

We have some mocking birds here…they make sounds from the phone ringing, small & large dog barks, horns, all other birds, tree frog and others. It’s insane how many sounds they can do!

[Polydor]

How’s the puppy going ?

P.

[oldenmare]

Wondering how the puppy is doing, too. We got our GP from someone in same situation as the OP - couldn’t handle the all night barking and their neighbors made a racket about it as well. We ended up with a wonderful farm dog who has quite the mind of his own.

Am also curious that the OP made a comment about not being able to find any good herding dogs (Aussies, BCs, etc) in VA - I know several reputable breeders here and have a lovely Aussie bitch from one of them. No need to go to the midwest/central US. Curious.

[FatCatFarm]

Congrats on your girl. Hope she is all you need her to be. We love our 3 boys.

[hastyreply]

When I had my GPs I looked at their barking as one of their “tools”. My border collie has “eye”. They aren’t barking to alert you they are barking to tell potential predators to “stay away, I’m on duty!”. They aren’t barking to annoy you or at “nothing” but doing what they are bred to do. My sheep who had only been worked by herding dogs, were a bit skittish on first meeting the GP but since they are so quick to read a dog, they knew that he wasn’t going to do anything to them.

I’ve always had herding dogs and like an obedient dog and that won’t work with LGDs. They are VERY intelligent but they work for themselves not for you. They just aren’t programed that way. They have to be able to think for themselves not look to a person.

I miss mine, sometimes. In a different situation I’d have them again. Even though I have over 80 acres there is a highway to close and one of them was a “patroler” and thought he should patrol down there. I just couldn’t let him do his thing. I would not have one on 5 acres with neighbors near by. You should be able to control predation with fencing and management techniques.

[secuono]

Just updating.
She quickly grew up and into a great LGD. She doesn’t bark ‘pointlessly’ like I thought she might and have commented on here years ago. Her barking doesn’t stress me like the other dogs do, I know she barks because something is there and she either sees it or smells it near by. House dogs have mostly learned to follow her lead and have limited their chatting at leaves and sticks, lol.
She chewed up a lot of things, dog toys she had/has zero interest in, so I just gathered up and fenced off everything I could. Luckily, this phase passed quickly!

Oh, and Chillie is still here, too.
Here she is with a bottle lamb.
https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/q88/s720x720/10252094_745252618841582_4580416917006939914_n.jpg?oh=79423b8be493700c45bc8a48ac85eca6&oe=55197525

https://scontent-a-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/10635811_832078386825671_1797672391274439628_n.jpg?oh=d85597026bff5ef1b206b2978451b34d&oe=550C9D6F

https://scontent-b-lga.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/q82/s720x720/1920256_737100262990151_276732563_n.jpg?oh=ee05b43a740cc86ea2960866f3b57793&oe=54D25FE7

https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/10653306_1482121638741054_8453478156501138656_n.jpg?oh=6dcea9d36ce11cdc4df3b286acd85c64&oe=55062E62&gda=1427784712_3427daea8dbd291764aa0562473c6d24