Help with trust

[SuzieQNutter]

You have to love the athletic ones, don’t you? My horse doesn’t just buck - he leaps into the air and bucks.

Which comes with the horse that can take the weight behind. He will take you up the levels.

Spooking because of something happening.

1st I do Spooky Object training. This is different to Desensitisation.

This means when the horse gets a fright it stands still. Which in your case may be the initial spin but then the horse stands still.

That happened to me on my 16.2hh tb in a snaffle bit and dressage saddle. I was standing at our fence talking to a guy on a stock horse in an Australian stock saddle, curb bit and had his dog with him.

The dog touched the electric fence, the fence clicked, the dog yelped and continued yelping as it took off for home leaping over the foot long grass, rocks, etc.

My horse spun and stood still.

We stood there and watched the stock horse spin and take off for home also leaping over the foot long grass and stumbling over rocks.

The guy had the horse’s head turned but the horse was going sideways and could not see where it was going.

2nd I do not feed anything heating, protein yes, heating no. My feeds do not contain oats, corn or molasses.

3rd I am an experienced lunger. I can work a horse on the lunge. That keeps horses sane and safer to ride.

4th I have a quiet seat. I do not razz horses up.

5th if guinea fowls count we have them. We also have hares that will shoot off when you step near them.

With the above I teach them to go long and low and trust comes from that.

[atr]

I’m older, I have a spooky horse. I always hand-walk briskly around the arena several times in both directions before I get on. It gives him a chance to check things out and stretch a bit and loosen up, and gives me a chance to do the same, and to check his “temperature.” Sometimes, lunging still seems like a good idea!

Also, once the weather starts getting colder, I switch to Back on Track saddle pads. I think they help. And the new barn I’ve just moved to has infra-red heaters over the crosstie areas, so you can both be nice a toasty and relaxed before the party starts.

But, once I’m on, it’s straight to work, because the devil makes work for idle hooves.

[Ambitious_Kate]

My boy was not spooky, but he had a wicked drop, spin and plunge he would trot out whenever he thought I wasn’t paying attention and he could get away with it. Which meant, he could get me off.

He would usually tag something cool to pretend it was instigated by something real like, “Oh, look, crows rising up cawing in the field over yonder. Surely they warn of predators. I’ll just dump you and run back to the barn, shall I?” Or, “Is that a grate with water flowing under the road?” Or, “I never expected to see a party tent erected near the house down the street. See it? You can Juuuuust make out the top of the tent from here. Its blue.” Then, BLAM!

The secret to this horse, was that he would pull this only about twice a year, so you had PLENTY of time to forget he could do this, and get complacent, and start to think how lovely walking out on a long rein after such a great workout would be. If I was hyperfocused, and never unalert, and paying attention to him, and kept contact on the reins, he would never hint that he could do this. Only when I was relaxed, and turned to say something to someone else, or looked around at the scenery. Then, BLAM! . He’s so freaking smart, and athletic.

[endlessclimb]

@Ambitious_Kate

“Oh, look, crows rising up cawing in the field over yonder. Surely they warn of predators. I’ll just dump you and run back to the barn, shall I?” Or, “Is that a grate with water flowing under the road?” Or, “I never expected to see a party tent erected near the house down the street. See it? You can Juuuuust make out the top of the tent from here. Its blue.” Then, BLAM!

[sascha]

@Alterration

That being said, this horse’s background is unclear enough and his behavior stallion-like enough that a retained testicle might not have been out of the question

I am by no means belittling your suspicions when I say I wish I could attribute my mare’s stallion-like behaviours to being proud cut I seriously, have never ridden a gelding as stallion-like as her and I’ve ridden some doozies. She is constantly mistaken for a boy horse. I’ve had very experienced horsemen delare, “She is EXACTLY like a stallion.” It’s bizarre and nope, nothing wrong with her, just a giant personality and a sense of needing to own the entire world and monitor all her precious (and at times terrifying) possessions at all times.

Eight years in she is much better, but those first few years I saw my life flash before my eyes more than once

[eightpondfarm]

Reproductively viable animals are slaves to their hormones. Mares and studs. (Mares are all: Look at me i am so hawt! lol). (Stallions are all: O Baby o baby)
I have had only one stallion that i rode, but he was pretty darn amazing. We went bareback everywhere. Twas years ago and his passing still has a big hole in my heart.
Currently training five older mustang geldings that were wild stallions until older. They were cut at age: 6, 10, 11, 11 and 15. All arrived within 12 months thru 18 months post gelding. They retain their secondary sex characteristics in bone, musculature and in all but one case, temperament. One thing i’ll say about stallions and recently gelded is that they are ‘courtly’ in their relationships with me. To a one they lowly nicker, curl their necks around me. It’s very endearing. They are very intune to where i am and how to avoid hurting me on the ground. And the one i’m now riding is incredibly aware of me being aboard every single second. They all have a good tight bond, but i’ve learned to expect that from mustangs.

[Alterration]

@sascha

I am by no means belittling your suspicions when I say I wish I could attribute my mare’s stallion-like behaviours to being proud cut I seriously, have never ridden a gelding as stallion-like as her and I’ve ridden some doozies. She is constantly mistaken for a boy horse. I’ve had very experienced horsemen delare, “She is EXACTLY like a stallion.” It’s bizarre and nope, nothing wrong with her, just a giant personality and a sense of needing to own the entire world and monitor all her precious (and at times terrifying) possessions at all times.

Eight years in she is much better, but those first few years I saw my life flash before my eyes more than once

Did not take it that way at all ROFL. It is definitely the type of behavior that makes you say “something else has GOT to be going on”!

[blue_heron]

I did not read every reply to this thread so apologies if I am repeating many things already said:

First and foremost, some you can never trust. I’ve had a couple of them, and while they did eventually reach a point where 90% of our rides were relaxed and I wasn’t also looking for things to spook at, they never reached Long Rein Status. No perusing the arena chatting, no quick glance at my phone to check the time, etc. I got no warning for these spooks, and one was a spook and bolt. Both fantastic sweet horses but I never did trust them entirely.

With the others, a lot of thinking exercises and a lot of saying out loud, “No, we are not looking at that right now!” with a strong outside rein and lots of inside bend. My trainer has me do the Spaghetti Bowl when something is particularly scary, aka trot around in random directions on a 20 m circle turning every time you hit the edge of the circle. The idea is to see the scary thing from every possible angle and remember to pay attention, because we’re going to be turning in a hot minute.

I also think a big element of trust is knowing when to quit, and having your horse know that you know where his max is and that you’ll quick before then. I’m a fan of quitting while I’m ahead or not wasting the day by starting a fight because there’s a scary thing. If something is so scary and we’re being a hot head one day, it is better IMO to concede the point and realize that the day will not be productive. We can do simple stuff or lots of transitions on the longe and be done. Sometimes the hot and smart ones hold a grudge with bad experiences like that. My training mantra is to try to make everything a good experience, and have at least one successful good experience per ride/training session.

[Mercedes2]

@blue_heron

First and foremost, some you can never trust

^This is wise. The goal shouldn’t be to build trust with a horse that can’t be fully trusted, but rather to find a way to stay safe and enjoy your rides. If OP wants a horse she can ride on a loose rein, this may not be the one for her and that’s okay.

[Alterration]

@Mercedes2

^This is wise. The goal shouldn’t be to build trust with a horse that can’t be fully trusted, but rather to find a way to stay safe and enjoy your rides. If OP wants a horse she can ride on a loose rein, this may not be the one for her and that’s okay.

I’m not sure that he can’t be trusted. The problem is that the few times he has done this, he’s lost me. They were honest. It’s not his fault that he’s athletic. He’s not evil, nor particularly spooky really. It’s just that when he does spook, they are big. I’ve owned him for 4 years now, he’s lost me only once, but he’s done this big spook probably 3 times in the 4 years? I mean, that’s not a bad track record overall, it’s just doing my head in because I no longer bounce.

Now, has it only been one losing because I’ve stopped it the other times? Probably. Should I anticipate coming off once per year? Well, I’m becoming less and less comfortable with that now that I’m starting to splat more and bounce less with age…and I’m not that old, it’s just that starting greenies and taking on problem children is starting to catch up with my body.

I have 4 horses. All of them walk just fine on a loose rein, except this one…once a year.

[Willesdon]

Body protector? It can help confidence.

[Alterration]

Good idea - I have one, but I almost never wear it. I should. That would definitely help!

[Posting_Trot]

Yes, I was going to say body protector, and also using a seat saver like the Acavallo ones. I used the “gel out” version which is just slightly tacky, and gives just enough extra stick that it’s a bit easier to stay on board if sudden teleportation occurs.

Here’s a link to a blog post about the seat savers:
Gel in or gel out

[happilyretired]

I have one like this. Sweet and talented horse — but he has a nasty “spin spook” and gives no warning. All of a sudden he’s not under you anymore. I also had a nasty SI injury thanks to him that took forever to heal. I finally surrendered – I’m mid-60’s and athletic but tempting fate didn’t seem like a good long term strategy. I had him in full training with a pro and ended up leasing him to said pro’s son who did well with the horse as a Junior at both national and International levels. The horse is now retired from showing (he is 19 and has Cushings which is under management) and my trainer uses him successfully as a lesson horse for advanced students. Good solutions for all. And I have a more reliable horse to ride myself.

[Paisley_Pony]

Don’t feel guilty about not long reining him.

My DD was training two malinois females at one point, and one of them simply could not be trusted to recall off leash. Her perimeter guard instincts were too strong, and she simply COULD NOT understand that the neighbors across the street were not going to be a threat. Would it have been nice to let her run more? Absolutely! Given her natural tendencies, was it a reasonable expectation? Nope. Even if that dog only went off the reservation once a year, it could have resulted in serious injury to our neighbors, and it wasn’t worth taking a chance.

Not all horses are the same, and we should never feel guilty about changing a training regimen to both suit them and keep ourselves safe at the same time.

[J-Lu]

@Alterration

@Mercedes2

^This is wise. The goal shouldn’t be to build trust with a horse that can’t be fully trusted, but rather to find a way to stay safe and enjoy your rides. If OP wants a horse she can ride on a loose rein, this may not be the one for her and that’s okay.

I’m not sure that he can’t be trusted. The problem is that the few times he has done this, he’s lost me. They were honest. It’s not his fault that he’s athletic. He’s not evil, nor particularly spooky really. It’s just that when he does spook, they are big. I’ve owned him for 4 years now, he’s lost me only once, but he’s done this big spook probably 3 times in the 4 years? I mean, that’s not a bad track record overall, it’s just doing my head in because I no longer bounce.

Now, has it only been one losing because I’ve stopped it the other times? Probably. Should I anticipate coming off once per year? Well, I’m becoming less and less comfortable with that now that I’m starting to splat more and bounce less with age…and I’m not that old, it’s just that starting greenies and taking on problem children is starting to catch up with my body.

I have 4 horses. All of them walk just fine on a loose rein, except this one…once a year.

With my brother from another mother, I keep his brain occupied in ALL scary places and ALL times when he’s focusing on something else besides me. He can’t help it and I know it. I use shoulder in, leg yield, turn on haunches or forehand to get his attention on me. I’ll even gently rake my spur up his side looking for that ear on me. Or tap him with the with the whip so he has to think about what I’m asking. I no longer ever let him focus 100% on what he’s focusing on and will likely spook at. I used to just be able to put him in shoulder-in and he was fine. Now, I have to be more creative because he can do shoulder-in in his sleep so I am more creative.

He can occasionally spook hard when there is, in his mind, something to spook at, but I just make him circle and work harder. I am very cognizant of releasing inside contact and leg when he’s paying attention and doing things well. This USED to be a recipe for disaster - he needed his hand held - but now I’m teaching him that he’s old enough to hold his own hand and listen to my aids.

Me saying “oh no, no you don’t” has increased my confidence. I think I ran out of patience and his training increased.

I have had trainers ride him past the Gate of Doom and seeing them get him by that also increased my confidence.

[Alterration]

So…he actually mounted a mare when I was gone last week and I just found out today. We are cutting that malarkey out right now, he no longer has full herd privileges. Next time the vet comes out, we’ll take some blood but until then…no sir. I do know geldings do this on occasion, but his behavior has gotten worse and worse in this mixed herd - which usually I’m a HUGE advocate for but clearly he cannot handle it.

I have had some good rides just getting right to work and lunging first, which was mostly his routine before I was told by my trainer that I needed to let him walk on a loose rein (which is how I came off). And I’m just going to have to wear my sticky pants

But first, I have to get his brain back in his head.

[eightpondfarm]

Here on my farm, it’s not unusual for a gelding to mount, and penetrate~, a mare. Happens all the time. Only thing that has caused me to separate a gelding is if he becomes Soooo possessive of the mare(s) that he bites and kicks and tries to hurt other geldings. I have one of those…He lives alone from the herd, with an elderly bull and an elderly mare with cushings.

[Alterration]

He does. He was always top dog, but now he’s become excessive all the way around. And because I board horses here, he’s a bit of a liability. The romance is over, sadly.

[MapleBreeze]

Put a double bridle on and keep your curb loose. Sometimes it’s helpful to have those brakes there when you need it. And don’t ride with it every day, just change it up.