Hempfling - Different approach to being with horses

[Montanas_Girl]

It’s about cues, not attention.

I, personally, do not train with treats. But I don’t call people who do stupid…

[eightpondfarm]

lol…like i said, i have their attention. Someone else, above, said it was about gaining their attention…not me.

cues, i am them.

[Montanas_Girl]

So, how do you teach a horse to respond to physical pressure if you don’t ever apply any? I don’t know about you, but my arms aren’t long enough to reach the horse’s hip when I’m standing at the head…

[eightpondfarm]

@Montanas_Girl

but my arms aren’t long enough to reach the horse’s hip when I’m standing at the head…

mine don’t need to be…because where they are is a straight line out to the horse’s body…

my arms…my posture, my body position on it’s own and my body positioning in relation to their body. i can slow them turn them (in or out) i can stop them…and when they are really good i can back them up. And i actually think of my arms as being 20 feet long. It’s where they are and what they are doing that the horse(s) pay attention to. Like i said, no way could i explain what i’m doing. And since i’m not teaching anyone except the animal with me, i suppose i don’t need to. And I do think flags are dumb…a distraction.

[Montanas_Girl]

The ground work I do isn’t trick training. It is preparation for riding. The horse learns to respond to the same kind of cues it will experience under saddle. If you don’t understand how to use a flag or longe whip, that’s a lack of education on your part, not a flaw of the tool.

[eightpondfarm]

okaaaaaay. ‘lack of education’ aside… my ‘groundwork’ is all about preparing a horse to be ridden. This is where i start with horses that are barely able to be touched…so, with a feral horse this is where i start…all about working with me.

oh, and you won’t like this either. But i begin our riding experience at liberty.

[Montanas_Girl]

If a horse is going to be ridden, it has to learn to respond to physical pressure. If you’ve found a magical way to ride a horse without actually touching it, I’m all ears…

[eightpondfarm]

not into teaching people. sorry. just animals.

[Montanas_Girl]

If you enjoy liberty work, great. Unlike you, I don’t trash other riding disciplines.

But I breed and raise performance horses. There are certain skills essential to their success that they must learn for the sake of both our safety. Prime among them being accepting and softening in response to pressure.

[Montanas_Girl]

@eightpondfarm

not into teaching people. sorry. just animals.

Don’t worry. There’s no danger of you teaching anyone anything with this kind of close-minded attitude.

[eightpondfarm]

there are a million and a half experts out there, i’m sure you’ll find help when you need it.

[Rackonteur]

Why is he sitting so tense and funny? He’s not exactly relaxing to the horse.

[Montanas_Girl]

Unlike you, I’m a student of trainers from a multitude of breeds and disciplines. I have no trouble finding help when I need it.

[eightpondfarm]

so great, you’re all set! i’m happy for you.

[Alterration]

Back to the topic at hand. I actually realized I had bought one of Hempfling’s books in 2013 and it happened to be in my kindle library. The book entitled It’s not I that seek the horse, the horse seeks me.

I don’t know how to cite page numbers since it is a kindle book, but in it with Marouk, he uses a flag in the way that I do, to get the horse to chase it, which builds confidence in a scary object.

Anyway, I didn’t get this far in the book before, so I have no idea where exactly I caught that idea, but it’s one that I’ve used with great success with spooky horses.

[Jealoushe]

@Benv

I don’t see anyone taking a horse, with known problems, a dangerous horse and going to it KNOWING that it will be a success in front of audience and camera.

I shared it early in the thread.

Check out featherlight horsemanship. Google it. She does exactly this and she is truly an amazing horsewoman.

[Jealoushe]

There’s also no bongos playing so

[skydy]

@Bluey

@McGurk

I had the pleasure of working with two very gifted stallion handlers; people that I would help in the breeding shed with no question.

One was a very quiet and unassuming man who never got angry, never got frustrated and never yelled. He was a genius at low energy behavior and the stallions responded to it. If a stallion acted up, his energy level would come up enough to control the behavior and then drop right back down. I held mares for him for live cover and held the AV to collect stallions for AI and always felt I was as safe as I could be under the circumstances.

Another, similar man was a stallion handler as well as a racehorse groom and was absolutely great with young horses and two year olds. He had similar tact, energy and timing and I often said I would get on ANYTHING if he was holding the shank and would lead me to the track. Horses seemed to know intuitively and simultaneously that they were in safe, kind hands and that it was a bad life choice to act up.

You’ve never heard of either of them. They have no videos and no books. They were just quiet, gifted horsemen doing their jobs.

If I had to get on a fresh two year old or handle a mare in the breeding shed, I would greatly, greatly prefer either of those men to Hempfling, Parelli, Allan Buck, Monty Roberts, Clinton Anderson or any of the other carnival barkers selling 50 cents of horsemanship in a $500 marketing package.

That was the retired military cavalry officer in his later years that was the instructor in our riding center when I was a teenager.
We received 15 feral horses directly from the mountains every late June, we worked with them and by September most were wonderful school horses, gentle and trustworthy.
When we first lay hand on them, the instructor was the one to handle them directly on the longe line.
Once they were saddling well and he considered them ready, I was the test pilot.
At times I asked if one was about ready and he would tell me, watch his face, is still tight, especially around the mouth. Some he would stop the horse, let me touch him and feel how tight some still were, felt like a rock and would say, until the horse is relaxed and confident, getting on would push him too much and set him back.
We want to always have it be the horse’s idea to let us do what we do with and to them.
If we force a horse, it just creates more problems to undo those resistances later, no sense on teaching them to resist our request.

As you say, if he said now get on the horse, I would, without question and practically all times it was right, horse would just walk off nicely, a feral horse that some times had just come off the mountains a few days before. In a few more days, they were gentle enough for the vet to geld them.

Our instructor used to say the equivalent of, if a horse acts up, roll a newspaper and hit yourself over the head with it, is your fault.

It is, all that rearing up and scooting around in some videos is painful to watch, so much wrong with that.

This is the difference between actual horse handlers and riders, and the woo-woo gurus.

The genuine people, work with and train horses and are mentors.

I noticed that the one video of this “master” that I watched, had him leading, what was said to be a “vicious stallion” so terrible that it was to be “sent to auction” (which I don’t believe for a minute), from a barn isle to outside the barn door (note that someone had already haltered and attached the lead to the “vicious” stallion before the video began. )

I’d be surprised if this guy has ever actually trained a horse, even from backing to WTC. It seems he shows up to lead other people’s supposedly “vicious” stallions for an audience or a camera and then leaves after collecting the check from the amazed non-horse people.

[Benv]

@Alterration

No. Lots of people still follow Parelli. Not sure about Monty Roberts.

A link to a lot of info about Monty:

Monty Roberts Lies

Monty Roberts Lies

Truth and Character Matter but not to MONTY ROBERTS

Parelli: https://www.writingofriding.com/in-the-media/a-problem-with-parelli/

Thank you for the information.

[Benv]

@Montanas_Girl

If you don’t understand how to use a flag or longe whip, that’s a lack of education on your part, not a flaw of the tool.

@Montanas_Girl

If you enjoy liberty work, great. Unlike you, I don’t trash other riding disciplines.

@Montanas_Girl

Don’t worry. There’s no danger of you teaching anyone anything with this kind of close-minded attitude.

@eightpondfarm shared an opinion and approach to working with horses different than yours, encouraged by the ongoing conversation. And also a reasonable critics to something you, as it seems, would consider right. And look what you are doing. Is it really fair? Just putting out there a point to think about.