Her pedigree...

[Jumper_girl221]

Oh, and the other thing I REALLY wish I could change…the fact she goes from dark, to this
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30744852&l=cff0d40cbd&id=149402250

I went out and bought her a fancy Amigo fly sheet, neck cover and all that she has worn all spring summer this year, and I’ve managed to slow her fading to this
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30940285&l=7a5657ed1f&id=149402250

Does she get any bonus points for being the only “grulla” TB out there? (yes I know, no dun gene in TB’s).

[camohn]

[QUOTE=Jumper_girl221;5687924]
Thank you everyone…this thread took off, lol.
.

I was also curious if she would stand a chance for MMB Hanoverian approval.

Now as for her downhill-ness, she is only just barely turned 4. I’ve noticed a huge difference in her way of going, and downhill-ness as she’s matured, what are the chances she’d level out more as she matures? I would consider that one of my strongest “dislikes” about her.[/QUOTE]

I would probably not choose AHS. She is decent but not flawless and they are the toughest of the lot on TBs. How much she will come uphill and fill out…you will have a better picture at 5. Usually with TBs they quit getting height and fill out at 5.

[camohn]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5685615]
Why ? She was not athletic enough to stay within 20 lengths of the pack. What makes you think she will be a good producer for the Olympic disciplines with this lack of athleticism ? There is no knowledge about the family with regards to breeding sporthorses. There isn’t any knowledge period.

You have to look at the horse in front of you and that horses family and not the blood on the paper. Just food for thought…[/QUOTE]

1. there is about zero correlation between speed and jumping or dressage ability.
   2)OTTs have been coming off the track to become sporthorses forever. Of course there is knowledge of TB family in regards to sporthorses. That son of Mr. P is not noted as being one of his decent SH producing sons…but he is not on the list as one of the horrible ones either. etty much most of the sire side is full of proven sporthorse lines. Now as to the dam side: Mr. P comment is as noted above. The damline is weaker…do have to go back 40 to 60 years to find the good uns there: Caro, Damascus, Raise A Native, Hoist The Flag, Prince John, Ambiorix…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=camohn;5688021]

1. there is about zero correlation between speed and jumping or dressage ability.
   2)OTTs have been coming off the track to become sporthorses forever. Of course there is knowledge of TB family in regards to sporthorses. That son of Mr. P is not noted as being one of his decent SH producing sons…but he is not on the list as one of the horrible ones either. etty much most of the sire side is full of proven sporthorse lines. Now as to the dam side: Mr. P comment is as noted above. The damline is weaker…do have to go back 40 to 60 years to find the good uns there: Caro, Damascus, Raise A Native, Hoist The Flag, Prince John, Ambiorix…[/QUOTE]

No one said there was a correlation between speed and jumping or dressage. My comment was simply aimed at her failure in her own discipline. i.e. Not being competitive. If she just finished last in every race , that would be one thing. She finished 20 lengths back.

The lack of knowledge I was referring to was her direct female family. There is none. No sporthorse breeding production , therefore no knowledge.

“OTTB’s have been coming off the track to be sporthorses forever” . Yes , and where are they ? It doesn’t work.

Please don’t cite one or two exceptions in the last 50 years. On the whole , it historically doesn’t work.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=camohn;5687986]
I would probably not choose AHS. She is decent but not flawless and they are the toughest of the lot on TBs. How much she will come uphill and fill out…you will have a better picture at 5. Usually with TBs they quit getting height and fill out at 5.[/QUOTE]

Not the only toughest one. TB mares have to be premium to be entered in the AHHA mmb.

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5688137]
Not the only toughest one. TB mares have to be premium to be entered in the AHHA mmb.[/QUOTE]

AHS requires them to be premium AND get at least a 7 on elasticity/trot.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Bent Hickory;5688141]
AHS requires them to be premium AND get at least a 7 on elasticity/trot.[/QUOTE]

Well…they are the toughest then. Good on them. I think if you’re going to use a TB mare , and expect to gain Holsteiner or Hann papers , she should be a VERY good one. I like these stringent requirements.

[S_A_McKee]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5685615]
Why ? She was not athletic enough to stay within 20 lengths of the pack. What makes you think she will be a good producer for the Olympic disciplines with this lack of athleticism ? There is no knowledge about the family with regards to breeding sporthorses. There isn’t any knowledge period.

You have to look at the horse in front of you and that horses family and not the blood on the paper. Just food for thought…[/QUOTE]

Years ago when most of the show hunters were OTTB it was considered a GOOD thing if the horse had a serious case of the ‘slows’. At least by those who knew what they were doing.

There are several horses in this pedigree that belong to lines that have produced sporthorses.

And yes, you certainly do have to look at the horse in front of you. And I don’t mean that in the same way that you do. It the horse meets a set of requirements be they sport or conformation for breeding then who cares. The horse doesn’t have the handicap of knowing that it’s a ( gasp) TB and can’r be expected to put one foot in front of the other without falling over.

Yeah, food for thought…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=S A McKee;5688482]
Years ago when most of the show hunters were OTTB it was considered a GOOD thing if the horse had a serious case of the ‘slows’. At least by those who knew what they were doing.

There are several horses in this pedigree that belong to lines that have produced sporthorses.

And yes, you certainly do have to look at the horse in front of you. And I don’t mean that in the same way that you do. It the horse meets a set of requirements be they sport or conformation for breeding then who cares. The horse doesn’t have the handicap of knowing that it’s a ( gasp) TB and can’r be expected to put one foot in front of the other without falling over.

Yeah, food for thought…[/QUOTE]

I’m confused by your statement. How do you look at it differently than I do ? I see conformational and riding issues that will keep this mare from performing like another mare with better construction could. I’m not talking about hunters.

It has nothing to do with simply being a TB so don’t turn it into that. It has everything to do with how this and most TB mares are conformed that were bred for racing. You might as well put an uphill Holsteiner in a cow cutting competition. It won’t cut it…(pun intended)

[keepthelegend]

My mother’s horse was a son of Alibhai and is the centerfold of George Morris’ book (Conrad Homfeld won the Maclay on him).

[Donella]

She is nicer then your average TB but is not a mare I would use to breed a dressage horse (I know nothing about jumpers/hunters). I have seen two TB mares approved VhW in the last few years and neither blew me away (though they were correct, substantial and moved well and in all fairness, one was quite old). The one last year (older one) though had the most gorgeous Escudo II foal and I am sure that helped the mare out. If you get a really nice foal from her it would be best to present her with the foal at side if you are aiming for AHS.

[Lynnwood]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;5688556]
I’m confused by your statement. How do you look at it differently than I do ? I see conformational and riding issues that will keep this mare from performing like another mare with better construction could. I’m not talking about hunters.

It has nothing to do with simply being a TB so don’t turn it into that. It has everything to do with how this and most TB mares are conformed that were bred for racing. You might as well put an uphill Holsteiner in a cow cutting competition. It won’t cut it…(pun intended)[/QUOTE]

Bay I think your missing the boat. The owner has already said

I would be looking at her to produce an all around hunter/jumper type, with a goal of a horse I could do the smaller A hunters with and not embarrass myself, cross enter into the lower jumpers, and do some derbies.

She is not looking to breed a Sunday ring horse… nore the 2nd coming of Totilas. She is looking to make a nice mid lvl hunter type horse that could be multifaceted enough to do a few things with some success. I think she is being realistic and setting the mare up to let her pass or fail on her own merits.

We know what “Your” standards are but not everyone has the same goals … and they certainly are not wrong for having their own path.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=hackinaround;5688925]
Bay I think your missing the boat. The owner has already said

She is not looking to breed a Sunday ring horse… nore the 2nd coming of Totilas. She is looking to make a nice mid lvl hunter type horse that could be multifaceted enough to do a few things with some success. I think she is being realistic and setting the mare up to let her pass or fail on her own merits.

We know what “Your” standards are but not everyone has the same goals … and they certainly are not wrong for having their own path.[/QUOTE]

And I think you are missing the boat in regards to my posts. My point has remained constant. There are better conformed mares with a recent family history of producing horses for the sport that are cheap or free to lease.

Strive for a little better breeding quality people and stop defending mediocrity.

[Kwill]

[QUOTE=Jumper_girl221;5687924]
Thank you everyone…this thread took off, lol.

I would be looking at her to produce an all around hunter/jumper type, with a goal of a horse I could do the smaller A hunters with and not embarrass myself, cross enter into the lower jumpers, and do some derbies. Some of the stallions I’ve got on my “short list” are Cunningham, C. Quito, Escudo, Colour Guard, and Apiro. [/QUOTE]

My question is still why this mare … there’s nothing wrong with her particularly but she’s not stellar, either. I could understand if she was a very favorite horse you had for years, but as I understand it she’s fairly new to your barn. What I and some other posters are saying is, ride her, have fun, but keeping this mare for a dual purpose of being a WB broodmare and your show horse isn’t the best plan because there are better broodmares out there.

You say yourself, “I am not sure about her conformation, I don’t know anything about bloodlines, but I want to breed this mare to produce a lower level ammie horse.” The better plan, if you want to breed yourself a nice replacement horse, is to lease a broodmare (or really, save up for four years and buy something fabulous – with the amount of money you spend on inspections and breeding you could buy something fantastic!).

Just because you have her and love her and she has a uterus does not mean she is going to serve the purpose of being a great broodmare. Good on you for wanting to show her and have her inspected, but I think you need to start with better bloodlines and conformation to achieve your goals.

I do get it that this is your horse, and wouldn’t it be cool to ride her then breed her to a fabulous stallion and get your replacement baby. I see it from the perspective of a surplus of good TB mares out there that are proven sport producers that need a job, and lots of good riding-age horses needing good homes like yours.

Obviously, it’s your horse and you should do what you want, you are not alone in starting a breeding career with a mare that you picked up off the track. But you did ask! :winkgrin:

[Jumper_girl221]

Thanks everyone, and I really do appreciate all of the input. Like I said before, who knows…I probably/might not end up breeding her, and if so, it will be years down the road.

All opinions are welcome, and merit thought on my part. I will make sure to come back in a few years and update with what I’ve done with her…if I even still own her, lol.

[fish]

Hmmm-- kind of an odd/unusual situation here: I like your mare best in the photo just off the track-- neck and head look more elegant and balance looks more uphill-- or. more accurately, nicely level as for hunters. Based on that photo + the pedigree, I’d say she’s a lovely prospect for the hunter ring and, if her performance is good, breeding the same.

As far as approvals go, if you’re looking to breed a hunter, I wouldn’t worry much about them-- and also wouldn’t wanting to be spending much $ trying to get the mare approved Hanoverian, Holsteiner, or any other registry that has not expressed much interest in the hunter market or discipline. With dressage these days favoring a type of movement that would be laughable in the hunter ring and, as others have pointed out, jumper people wanting things (like speed, for example) totally irrelevant to hunters as a discipline, it just doesn’t make much sense to me to take a hunter broodmare prospect to be evaluated by people with a long history using “hunter” as a dirty word and showing no inclination to change.

At least these days there are some WB registries showing interest in hunters, e.g., Dutch, GOV, ISR/Old. NA. If you want to improve the marketability of your foal, I can understand your desire to have the mare approved so the foal can be registered and suggest you look into these options. I also agree, however, with those who advise you to wait and see how the mare performs, then present her with a nice foal at her side… no sense in paying through the nose for an essentially meaningless inspection of a mare whose abilities as a SH remain pretty much unproven (though she does sound like a sweetheart).

FYI, I have 2 babies by Cunningham out of a race-bred TB mare awarded Premium status by ISR/Old before the split, who I then showed successfully in both hunters and dressage. Despite the Premium award, I found the keuring annoyingly useless and irrelevant to my goals with this mare and her babies. When I 1st bred to Cunningham, he was only 3 or 4 and still years away from approval in this country on the basis of his record in the hunter ring and both GOV and Old., NA gave me an earful on what a mistake I’d made breeding a colt they would not consider for registration despite his sire’s approval by the Hosteiner Verband. Happily, I found that top hunter trainers didn’t give a hoot about registration when they see my colts-- they want to know bloodlines, what parents have done, and what the horses themselves look like, not keuring results. IOW, if you want to breed hunters, seek “approval” from hunter people, not those who outright profess disdain for your chosen discipline.

Rant over. (Sure am glad Bayhawk’s on my ignore list, too;) )

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=fish;5692461]
Hmmm-- kind of an odd/unusual situation here: I like your mare best in the photo just off the track-- neck and head look more elegant and balance looks more uphill-- or. more accurately, nicely level as for hunters. Based on that photo + the pedigree, I’d say she’s a lovely prospect for the hunter ring and, if her performance is good, breeding the same.

As far as approvals go, if you’re looking to breed a hunter, I wouldn’t worry much about them-- and also wouldn’t wanting to be spending much $ trying to get the mare approved Hanoverian, Holsteiner, or any other registry that has not expressed much interest in the hunter market or discipline. With dressage these days favoring a type of movement that would be laughable in the hunter ring and, as others have pointed out, jumper people wanting things (like speed, for example) totally irrelevant to hunters as a discipline, it just doesn’t make much sense to me to take a hunter broodmare prospect to be evaluated by people with a long history using “hunter” as a dirty word and showing no inclination to change.

At least these days there are some WB registries showing interest in hunters, e.g., Dutch, GOV, ISR/Old. NA. If you want to improve the marketability of your foal, I can understand your desire to have the mare approved so the foal can be registered and suggest you look into these options. I also agree, however, with those who advise you to wait and see how the mare performs, then present her with a nice foal at her side… no sense in paying through the nose for an essentially meaningless inspection of a mare whose abilities as a SH remain pretty much unproven (though she does sound like a sweetheart).

FYI, I have 2 babies by Cunningham out of a race-bred TB mare awarded Premium status by ISR/Old before the split, who I then showed successfully in both hunters and dressage. Despite the Premium award, I found the keuring annoyingly useless and irrelevant to my goals with this mare and her babies. When I 1st bred to Cunningham, he was only 3 or 4 and still years away from approval in this country on the basis of his record in the hunter ring and both GOV and Old., NA gave me an earful on what a mistake I’d made breeding a colt they would not consider for registration despite his sire’s approval by the Hosteiner Verband. Happily, I found that top hunter trainers didn’t give a hoot about registration when they see my colts-- they want to know bloodlines, what parents have done, and what the horses themselves look like, not keuring results. IOW, if you want to breed hunters, seek “approval” from hunter people, not those who outright profess disdain for your chosen discipline.

Rant over. (Sure am glad Bayhawk’s on my ignore list, too;) )[/QUOTE]

If I’m on your ignore list then why do you bring me up ? Only thing I said was there were better mares for breeding. If you choose to ignore that, so be it.