Hill's blahblah Feline W/D: New Question-- p. 2

[mvp]

Did I just buy diet cat food… for $4/lb?

Cat of Greatness (who is old, diabetic, fat and arthritic but also a bona fide Truck Cat) just went to a new vet for a check up on her diabetes.

I suck at doing First World Medicine for cats and small animal vets seem to know it. This stuff was sold to me as part of what “I have to do” for kitteh. Not terribly impressed with the vet’s bedside manner (We stopped just short of talking about the special circle of hell reserved for pet owners who ask about cost along with diagnostics and treatment plans) and lack of complete or written instructions for changing up Catness’s diet and insulin at the same time. (The advice: “Own some Karo Syrup.”)

Given that I suck, can we move onto my questions? Those are:

What’s so special about this cat food?
What should it cost?
Is there a cheaper and equivalent way to feed the Old Lady for what ails her?

I am into learning how to take care of Truck Cat, but I’m not sure this vet sees my questions as neutral.

[wildlifer]

I’ve not used the Feline kind, but have had the vet give me some of the Canine W/D. After I read the label, I threw it away and bought Wellness, which was cheaper. My cats now eat Wellness too, nice stuff. Surely Catness will consent, what does she have to lose?

[Simkie]

I’d get over to www.catinfo.org, pronto, and read alllll about feeding diabetic meows.

Then dump the W/D (can you take it back?) and work on getting her on no carb, meat only wet food. Few ways to do it–Fancy Feast makes some varieties that are cheap that work for diabetic cats (look for the ones free of wheat gluten), or you can go with the largest cans of something like Before Grain (I feed the dog cans–the BG people have confirmed for me that they are nutritionally complete for kitties–and the biggest cans are the most economical), or you could try one of the less expensive raws.

[cloudyandcallie]

I’ve used the prescription science diet for dogs and cats. I opted NOT to use the cat variety made of horse meat though. So my vet gave me SD that did not contain horse meat. (I had to blend it with water and squirt it into a stomach tube every 4 hours.) I think you could buy fresh products and make your own food for you cat. (chicken,fish, etc). The SD canned food is much more convenient, but more expensive.

I had to give one cat insulin shots when she became diabetic at 18 yoa. She ate a lot of baked chicken breasts along with her canned science diet.

[shiningwizard255]

My cat has colitis and was first prescribed w/d (dry food). Did nothing for him, and it contains corn. I normally shy away from any pet food with corn in it (for dogs and cats anyway) but tried it only because he was sick at the vet’s recommendation. Waste of money IMO.

[cleozowner]

Isn’t the website Simkie mentioned just another vet’s opinion? I would defer to peer-reviewed studies before one vet’s opinion–or I’d at least talk to a board-certified nutritionist, whose job it is to conduct and evaluate those studies.
I wouldn’t go messing with your kitty’s food if the vet has adjusted insulin to the w/d food, but I think clients who are respectfully curious–and don’t go shoving websites of people’s opinions into their laps–typically are welcomed by many vets.

[Pasde2]

I don’t use this cat food, so UP FRONT WARNING: The information about Hill’s is NOT based on personal experience or on testing. I hope it helps answer at least one of your questions. I’ve worked with a good many vet students, and over the years, they’ve shared their own professional and personal experiences with various types of horse/dog/cat foods.

ALL seem to agree on Hill’s: They don’t prescribe/suggest/sell it because they’ve evaluated it and carefully compared it with other foods, but once they’re in practice, they usually DO sell it, at least at first, because they are all familiar with it. During their years in vet school they saw it every day. The company apparently made (and perhaps still makes?) these foods available to vet schools, either free of charge or at a great discount, and of course there are brochures etc. available in quantity as well. By the time the young vets graduate, many of them apparently either feel grateful and/or obligated to the company, or are simply in the habit of automatically saying “The cat has a condition? Hill’s has a food for it!”

You might be interested in this article
http://news.vin.com/vinnews.aspx?articleId=20102
that one of my long-ago students sent to me recently, when we were discussing the varying quality of animal feeds and the various sales tactics of corporations.

So - Hills, good? bad? average? I’m not a vet but I’ve been down this road a few times. Diabetic cats are heartbreakers. Check the food label and compare it to other foods, consider which combination of macro- and micronutrients ought to be best for your cat’s condition, and then… do your best and keep on monitoring your cat. You know the saying “The eye of the master makes the horse fat” - the same applies to cats. Owners usually know their own cats better and observe them much more closely than anyone else possibly could.

In terms of nutrition, feline diabetes may well be similar to human diabetes in that food consisting primarily of fat and protein would be preferable to food containing carbohydrates. I wasn’t aware of this the first time I was dealing with a diabetic cat; the second time, I fed the sort of diet that helps humans regulate their blood sugar, and the cat stayed alive much longer (years longer, actually) and had a much better quality of life. Obviously a two-cat experiment isn’t much, I’m not a vet and my personal experiences with diabetic cats come down to just a couple of anecdotes really, but that’s all I have to offer.

Except, obviously, my very best wishes for you and your kitty.

[Simkie]

@cleozowner;5960580

Isn’t the website Simkie mentioned just another vet’s opinion? I would defer to peer-reviewed studies before one vet’s opinion.

Sure, how about this one?

Published JAVMA, Vol 211, No 11, Dec 1, 2002. Author: Debra L. Zoran, DVM, PhD, DACVIM.

http://felinediabetes.com/zorans_article.pdf

Unfortunately, the document is secured, so I cannot copy and paste. Please go to page six and begin reading four lines down (Beginning with “Dietary recommendations…”) and continue through the column. You can stop at “IHL in Cats.” If you’d like more, she cites several other studies.

Or just read the whole thing. Very interesting.

[wendy]

try these:

Vet Res Commun. 2009 Oct;33(7):669-80. Epub 2009 Mar 26.

Comparison of three commercially available prescription diet regimens on short-term post-prandial serum glucose and insulin concentrations in healthy cats.

Mori A, Sako T, Lee P, Nishimaki Y, Fukuta H, Mizutani H, Honjo T, Arai T.

Source

Department of Veterinary Science, School of Veterinary Medicine, Nippon Veterinary and Life Science University, 1-7-1 Kyonancho, Musashino, Tokyo, 180-8602, Japan. d0608@nvlu.ac.jp

Abstract

Dietary therapy is an important treatment component for diabetes mellitus (DM). In this study, the impact of three different commercially available diet regiments (1 general use and 2 aimed for treating obesity and DM) on short-term post-prandial serum glucose and insulin concentrations of five healthy cats to better understand what impact each of these diets may have for diabetic cats. The diet regiments used in this study were as follows: C/D dry (General Use- Low protein, High fat, High carbohydrate, and Low fiber), M/D dry (DM- High protein, High fat, Low carbohydrate, and High Fiber), and W/D dry (DM- Low Protein, Low Fat, High Carbohydrate, and High Fiber). No significant difference in post-prandial serum glucose levels were observed with the C/D (84.6 +/- 1.5 mg/dl) and W/D (83.8 +/- 1.4 mg/dl) dry diets when compared to pre-prandial fasting levels (83.9 +/- 1.4 mg/dl). However, a significant reduction was observed with the M/D diet (78.9 +/- 0.8 mg/dl) which had 50-60% less carbohydrates than either C/D or W/D diet. Unlike what was observed with post-prandial glucose levels, an interesting pattern emerged with post-prandial insulin levels, which were increasing with W/D, C/D, and M/D diets in that order (1.1 +/- 0.2, 1.7 +/- 0.2, and 2.3 +/- 0.2 ng/ml respectively). Most surprising, though, was the fact that the W/D diet did not seem to stimulate insulin secretion as compared to pre-prandial levels (1.1 +/- 0.1 ng/ml) in healthy cats. Interestingly, the W/D diet had high levels of carbohydrate and low levels of protein. Coincidentally, the only diet (M/D) which had a significant reduction in post-prandial glucose also showed the highest increase in post-prandial insulin in healthy cats. Therefore, dietary amounts of carbohydrate, fat, protein and fiber can all have an individual impact on post-prandial glycemia and subsequent insulin requirement levels. Just as concepts regarding dietary management of people with DM are evolving, investigators are reassessing what constitutes the ideal diet for the diabetic feline. As such, having a better understanding for each dietary component, may lead us to better understand how we can synergize certain dietary components to aid in DM management.

PMID: 19322671 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Publication Types, MeSH Terms, Substances

J Feline Med Surg. 2006 Apr;8(2):73-84. Epub 2005 Nov 7.

Comparison of a low carbohydrate-low fiber diet and a moderate carbohydrate-high fiber diet in the management of feline diabetes mellitus.

Bennett N, Greco DS, Peterson ME, Kirk C, Mathes M, Fettman MJ.

Source

Department of Clinical Sciences, Colorado State University, Fort Collins, 80523, USA. nbennet@colostate.edu

Abstract

This study compared the effects of a moderate carbohydrate-high fiber (MC-HF) food and a low carbohydrate-low fiber (LC-LF) food on glycemic control in cats with diabetes mellitus. Sixty-three diabetic cats (48 male castrated, 15 female spayed) were randomly assigned to be fed either a canned MC-HF (n = 32) food or a canned LC-LF (n = 31) food for 16 weeks. Owners were blinded to the type of diet fed. CBC, urinalysis, serum chemistry panel, fructosamine concentration and thyroxine concentration were determined on initial examination, and a complete blood count, serum chemistry panel, urinalysis and serum fructosamine concentration were repeated every 4 weeks for 16 weeks. Insulin doses were adjusted as needed to resolve clinical signs and lower serum fructosamine concentrations. Serum glucose (P = 0.0001) and fructosamine (P = 0.0001) concentrations significantly decreased from week 0 to week 16 in both dietary groups. By week 16, significantly more of the cats fed the LC-LF food (68%, 22/31), compared to the cats fed the MC-HF food (41%, 13/32), had reverted to a non-insulin-dependent state (P = 0.03). Cats in both groups were successfully taken off of insulin regardless of age, sex, type of insulin administered or duration of clinical disease before entering the study. There was no significant difference in the initial or final mean body weights or in the mean change in body weight from week 0 to week 16 between dietary groups. Diabetic cats in this study were significantly more likely to revert to a non-insulin-dependent state when fed the canned LC-LF food versus the MC-HF food.

PMID: 16275041 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Related citations

Comparison of a low carbohydrate-low fiber diet and a moderate carbohydrate-high fiber diet in the management of feline diabetes mellitus.[J Feline Med Surg. 2006]
Comparison of a low carbohydrate-low fiber diet and a moderate carbohydrate-high fiber diet in the management of feline diabetes mellitus.
Bennett N, Greco DS, Peterson ME, Kirk C, Mathes M, Fettman MJ. J Feline Med Surg. 2006 Apr; 8(2):73-84. Epub 2005 Nov 7.

Effects of six carbohydrate sources on diet digestibility and postprandial glucose and insulin responses in cats.[J Anim Sci. 2008]
Effects of six carbohydrate sources on diet digestibility and postprandial glucose and insulin responses in cats.
de-Oliveira LD, Carciofi AC, Oliveira MC, Vasconcellos RS, Bazolli RS, Pereira GT, Prada F. J Anim Sci. 2008 Sep; 86(9):2237-46. Epub 2008 May 9.

Effect of dietary insoluble fiber on control of glycemia in cats with naturally acquired diabetes mellitus.[J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2000]
Review Effects of dietary fiber and carbohydrate on glucose and lipoprotein metabolism in diabetic patients.[Diabetes Care. 1991]
Effects of dietary fiber and carbohydrate on glucose and lipoprotein metabolism in diabetic patients.
Riccardi G, Rivellese AA. Diabetes Care. 1991 Dec; 14(12):1115-25.

Review Feline diabetes mellitus: low carbohydrates versus high fiber?[Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract. 2006]
Feline diabetes mellitus: low carbohydrates versus high fiber?
Kirk CA. Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract. 2006 Nov; 36(6):1297-306, vii.

Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract. 2006 Nov;36(6):1297-306, vii.

Feline diabetes mellitus: low carbohydrates versus high fiber?

Kirk CA.

Source

Department of Small Animal Clinical Sciences, Veterinary Teaching Hospital, College of Veterinary Medicine, The University of Tennessee, Knoxville, TN 37996-4545, USA. ckirk@utk.edu

Erratum in
Vet Clin North Am Small Anim Pract. 2007 Jan;37(1):xiii.

Abstract

Treatment of diabetes mellitus (DM) in the cat relies primarily on the adequate insulin therapy and controlled dietary intake. The goals of managing DM in the cat have changed from attaining glycemic control to achieving diabetic remission (transient diabetes) in a large proportion of cases. Remission rates of up to 68% have been published. The used of low-carbohydrate foods for cats improves the odds of achieving diabetic remission by fourfold. Nonetheless, some cats show an improved response to high-fiber food. Clinical judgement, trial, and personal preference to currently dictate which diet to offer an individual animal.

PMID: 17085236 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Crit Rev Food Sci Nutr. 2012 Feb;52(2):172-82.

Nutritional modulation of insulin resistance in the true carnivorous cat: a review.

Verbrugghe A, Hesta M, Daminet S, Janssens GP.

Source

a Laboratory of Animal Nutrition, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Ghent University, Heidestraat 19, B-9820 , Merelbeke , Belgium.

Abstract

Cats are strict carnivores that rely on nutrients in animal tissues to meet their specific and unique nutritional requirements. In their natural habitat, cats consume prey high in protein with moderate amounts of fat and minimal carbohydrates in contrast to commercial diets, which are sometimes moderate to high in carbohydrates. This change in diet has been accompanied by a shift from an outdoor environment to an indoor lifestyle and decreased physical activity, because cats no longer need to hunt to obtain food. This transformation of the lifestyle of cats is thought to be responsible for the recent increase in incidence of obesity, insulin resistance, and diabetes mellitus in domestic cats. At first, an overview of the evolutionary physiological adaptations of carbohydrate digestion in the feline digestive tract and of the hepatic carbohydrate and protein metabolism reflecting the true carnivorous nature of cats is given. Secondly, this literature review deals with nutritional modulation of insulin sensitivity, focusing on dietary macronutrients, carbohydrate sources, and dietary fiber for prevention and treatment of insulin resistance.

PMID: 22059962 [PubMed - in process]

J Nutr. 2009 May;139(5):855-60. Epub 2009 Mar 4.

Protein intake during weight loss influences the energy required for weight loss and maintenance in cats.

Vasconcellos RS, Borges NC, Gonçalves KN, Canola JC, de Paula FJ, Malheiros EB, Brunetto MA, Carciofi AC.

Source

Universidade Estadual Paulista, Faculdade de Ciências Agrárias e Veterinárias, Departamento de Clínica e Cirurgia Veterinária, 14884-900 Jaboticabal-São Paulo, Brazil.

Abstract

The effects of 2 diets with different protein contents on weight loss and subsequent maintenance was assessed in obese cats. The control group [Co; n = 8; body condition score (BCS) = 8.6 +/- 0.2] received a diet containing 21.4 g crude protein (CP)/MJ of metabolizable energy and the high-protein group (HP; n = 7; BCS = 8.6 +/- 0.2) received a diet containing 28.4 g CP/MJ until the cats achieved a 20% controlled weight loss (0.92 +/- 0.2%/wk). After the weight loss, the cats were all fed a diet containing 28.0 g CP/MJ at an amount sufficient to maintain a constant body weight (MAIN) for 120 d. During weight loss, there was a reduction of lean mass in Co (P < 0.01) but not in HP cats and a reduction in leptinemia in both groups (P < 0.01). Energy intake per kilogram of metabolic weight (kg(-0.40)) to maintain the same rate of weight loss was lower (P < 0.04) in the Co (344 +/- 15.9 kJ x kg(-0.40) x d(-1)) than in the HP group (377 +/- 12.4 kJ. x kg(-0.40) x d(-1)). During the first 40 d of MAIN, the energy requirement for weight maintenance was 398.7 +/- 9.7 kJ.kg(-0.40) x d(-1) for both groups, corresponding to 73% of the NRC recommendation. The required energy gradually increased in both groups (P < 0.05) but at a faster rate in HP; therefore, the energy consumption during the last 40 d of the MAIN was higher (P < 0.001) for the HP cats (533.8 +/- 7.4 kJ x kg(-0.40) x d(-1)) than for the control cats (462.3 +/- 9.6 kJ x kg(-0.40) x d(-1)). These findings suggest that HP diets allow a higher energy intake to weight loss in cats, reducing the intensity of energy restriction. Protein intake also seemed to have long-term effects so that weight maintenance required more energy after weight loss.

PMID: 19261729 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

J Anim Physiol Anim Nutr (Berl). 2011 Jun;95(3):359-67. doi: 10.1111/j.1439-0396.2010.01062.x. Epub 2010 Oct 29.

Influence of a high-protein diet on energy balance in obese cats allowed ad libitum access to food.

Wei A, Fascetti AJ, Liu KJ, Villaverde C, Green AS, Manzanilla EG, Havel PJ, Ramsey JJ.

Source

Department of Molecular Biosciences, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of California, Davis, CA 95616, USA. jjramsey@ucdavis.edu

Abstract

The influence of a high-protein [HP, 47% of metabolizable energy (ME)] diet on energy balance was evaluated in obese cats allowed ad libitum access to food. Energy intake, body weight, body composition, energy expenditure, and concentrations of hormones and metabolites associated with carbohydrate and lipid metabolism (glucose, insulin, free fatty acids, triglycerides and leptin) were measured in cats after consuming either a moderate protein (MP, 27% of ME) or HP diet for 4 months. Indirect respiration calorimetry showed that resting and total energy expenditure (kJ/day) adjusted for either body weight or lean body mass was increased in cats consuming the HP in relation to MP diets. However, voluntary energy intake also was increased in the HP treatment and, thus, there was no difference in body weight between animals consuming the two diets. Body composition measurements using deuterium oxide dilution showed that dietary protein content did not alter amounts of either lean body mass or fat mass. No significant differences (p > 0.05) were observed between the two treatment groups for blood glucose, free fatty acid or leptin concentrations, although there was a trend (p = 0.054) towards an increase of serum insulin concentrations in the cats eating the HP diet. This study showed that short-term ad libitum feeding of an HP diet did not reduce food intake or promote weight loss in obese cats. However, energy expenditure was increased in the HP diet group and it is possible that this effect of HP might help promote weight loss when energy intake is restricted.

© 2010 Blackwell Verlag GmbH.

the ingredients on Hills w/d are so bad it’s hard to believe it’s beneficial to any cat to eat it- it’s rice spiked with corn gluten. Plus it should be dirt-cheap with such cheap ingredients. It’s a high-fiber, low-protein, low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet, if you are having trouble correlating it with the information in the above articles.

[mvp]

Thanks, all.

This thread explains a lot-- mainly that I’m a sucker, hoping and trying to make a relationship with a new small animal vet work. It proves expensive to switch.

Sadly, the bag is open. Otherwise I’d return it and begin my search for a vet anew. (I think I’d be seen as a cheap, non-compliant a-hole if I did that and continued to patronize this practice. I’m stupid but no masochist.)

Also very sad, I read the ingredients on the Hill’s W/D bag and found all kinds of grain way up at the top. The vet claimed that the high-fiber content was what was doing the job in this cat food. I suspect eating it will be like the fat man eating celery. No calorie-hound is fooled by celery!

Catness will be ok. I agree with the poster who said that owners who watch their animals know them pretty well. I’m confident that I can switch insulins and maybe diet without sending Kitteh in insulin shock. We will go slowly, and I’ll report back.

[MajesticDynasty]

Just say your cat won’t eat it.
Off the Hill’s website:
“All Hill’s pet foods are marked with our guarantee. If you are not satisfied with Science Diet® pet food products for any reason, simply return the unused portion to the place of purchase for a refund or replacement.”

I know we tell our clients if their pets don’t eat it to return the bag and we’ll refund them.

[SquishTheBunny]

My kitties eat anything. I dont buy them “grain free” anything…they are glorified barn cats - they eat mice and horse grain…so I figured a food with grain it it wont kill them. Ones 24 and has been on W/D for quite some time now because he’s prone to getting chunky. For me, its cheaper than wellness. He is prone to getting crystals and he got them on wellness, but not the WD. So…yeah, probably not the most ideal food out there but it works great for him - keeps his weight in check and well, he’s 24 and looking great so I cant complain!

I jumped on the bandwagon with “grain free” for my dogs. They are still alive and seem to enjoy any food…no difference in them, but they were never off before. They get enough of their own daily grain with the horse poop though ;D

[SquishTheBunny]

[QUOTE=mvp;5961240]
Thanks, all.

Catness will be ok. I agree with the poster who said that owners who watch their animals know them pretty well. I’m confident that I can switch insulins and maybe diet without sending Kitteh in insulin shock. We will go slowly, and I’ll report back.[/QUOTE]

Is your vet suggesting you switch insulin? Im sure you know this, but just becareful with which IU syringe you use. Caninsulin, glargine (lantus) and Humulin N can have different syringes. Kitty came into our hospital last week when the owner used a caninsulin syringe when dosing with Humulin N.

[SLW]

@mvp;5961240

Thanks, all.

This thread explains a lot-- mainly that I’m a sucker, hoping and trying to make a relationship with a new small animal vet work. It proves expensive to switch.

Sadly, the bag is open. Otherwise I’d return it and begin my search for a vet anew. (I think I’d be seen as a cheap, non-compliant a-hole if I did that and continued to patronize this practice. I’m stupid but no masochist.)

Also very sad, I read the ingredients on the Hill’s W/D bag and found all kinds of grain way up at the top. The vet claimed that the high-fiber content was what was doing the job in this cat food. I suspect eating it will be like the fat man eating celery. No calorie-hound is fooled by celery!

Catness will be ok. I agree with the poster who said that owners who watch their animals know them pretty well. I’m confident that I can switch insulins and maybe diet without sending Kitteh in insulin shock. We will go slowly, and I’ll report back.

Return it to the vet for a full refund. Hiills promises that. We sell it at the clinic and clients often have to return it for one reason or the other.

On Hill’s website are coupons to be used towards their products…tossing that out on the off chance you decide to use another one.

[wendy]

We sell it at the clinic

after reading all of the research about how ineffective it is vs. possible alternatives, why do you continue to prescribe/ sell it?

[mvp]

[QUOTE=SquishTheBunny;5961297]
Is your vet suggesting you switch insulin? Im sure you know this, but just becareful with which IU syringe you use. Caninsulin, glargine (lantus) and Humulin N can have different syringes. Kitty came into our hospital last week when the owner used a caninsulin syringe when dosing with Humulin N.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reminder.

Kitteh was on Prozinc which is a U-40 insulin.

(Math is done, however, and I convert her dosage to units in U-100 syringes because I had been given a whole mess of those by a friend whose diabetic cat kicked the bucket).

She has now been given Humulin N. That’s a U-100 insulin. I talked about the units I’d use with this stuff, and then double-checked with the pharmacist who sold it to me… just to make sure that I didn’t kill kitteh myself.

Some other educational questions, then: As I understand it, U-40 vs u-100 is about the concentration of insulin per unit of volume. So, more insulin per ml. of U-100. When you look at these syringes, you’ll notice that they are roughly the same size-- but wider spaces among the I-40 lines. As you would expect, you give less/“fewer lines” of an I-100.

But both are long-acting, time-release kinds of insulin, right? Any other functional differences?

[Marshfield]

I like the canned ( evo for diabetic cats

[SquishTheBunny]

Im sorry I am not familliar with the prozinc insulin. Humulin N is U100. It will look like you are giving a very small amount (typically small amount in cats) and those darn lines are so difficult to see. We have in the past diluted insulin for cats on 1 to 2 units, however most are on higher amounts so we (thankfully) dont have to worry about diluting. Id invest in a magnifine glass lol.

[WaningMoon]

A magnifying glass can be helpful.

[SLW]

@wendy;5962328

after reading all of the research about how ineffective it is vs. possible alternatives, why do you continue to prescribe/ sell it?

I’m not one of the vets, just an employee. My hunch is the big guns continue to offer it for purchase because when used for a specific condition positive results are seen in blood work, urinalysis, weigh loss, etc.