Hindquarter muscling asymetry

[endlessclimb]

@beowulf

Paging @IPEsq

First thing I noticed is that she is quite crooked, and very tight/almost no movement at all along her back and pelvis. She is bracing through her back, look how stiff her tail is for one of the more obvious symptoms. Protecting something for sure - can’t tell if it’s her feet, or something up high, because she is showing symptoms for both.

Her LH has abnormal abduction going on, when it swings to midline like that - she is almost toe-stabbing and landing toe-first behind, quick to deload from her hooves, won’t push off with LH, does not flex the LH pastern truly, and is weak with RH… Her RH is also very weak, they both looked unsound to me in different ways, but I thought she was much worse going to the left.

To me it looks like a few things vs one. This is classically how I think a very backsore horse moves… is this the same mare that had those awful hind feet a few years back?

The hind feet thing was a litte more than a year ago. I paid for equipak for 6 (?) shoeing cycles, focus only on building a better hoof. Honestly, it did not improve her way of going at all. When the bodyworker (who is also a vet) worked on her, he didn’t notice any improvement in her (minor, according to him) backsoreness. Ultimately I stopped because some junk got under the urethane and destroyed her foot from thrush.

I’m ok with the fact that she will never go 100% sound. I have spent all I can spend on that pursuit - we’re talking in the realm of 8k +. The hindquarter asymetry is new. While all the other stuff was going on, whether or not I or they missed something in the past, when she was L.A.M.E, I never had hindquarter muscling get atrophied like this. You can see that it was not there as recent as a month ago, and you’ll have to believe me for the remainder of the time.

The muscling issue is extremely sudden onset, and is a new development/concern to me.

ETA: I’m willing to spend money on fixing any “new” or readily apparent problems, but I’m not going to keep chasing my tail on the overall hind end issue, because I’ve done everything short of an MRI and it’s not conclusive.

[IPEsq]

She is certainly moving much worse in the recent video. And that atrophy is pretty extreme to happen so fast. X-ray the pelvis. I have seen ultra lame from a broken pelvis but in comparing her gait I wouldn’t rule that out just because the lameness isn’t severe in her case.

[endlessclimb]

@IPEsq

She is certainly moving much worse in the recent video. And that atrophy is pretty extreme to happen so fast. X-ray the pelvis. I have seen ultra lame from a broken pelvis but in comparing her gait I wouldn’t rule that out just because the lameness isn’t severe in her case.

Do you think she was moving equally bad in the ridden video?

I’m honestly starting to think I’m blind. I can see something but I always struggle to pinpoint what.

[endlessclimb]

@beowulf

“Her LH has abnormal abduction going on, when it swings to midline like that”.

Can you explain this a little more?

[beowulf]

@endlessclimb

@beowulf

“Her LH has abnormal abduction going on, when it swings to midline like that”.

Can you explain this a little more?

Of course. :yes:

So, when watching her go to the left, this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ81pAvM_cY

Right away at the walk, watch her bring her inside (left) hind forward. The motion is not fluid, but watch how her lower leg is moving - it’s also visible in the hall video you posted, she is bringing the leg forward at an angle (traveling wide) with the LH . To me, it looks like she is popping her stifle out to prevent her hock from fully flexing. Watch the stifle as the hoof lands and pushes off - the hock is braced and the stifle looks like it drops and rotates out as her hock straightens and her hooves push off/leave the ground. This is all most obvious to my eye in the first 15s of the video, before she trots. 0:13-0:16 especially, you can see she is crooked and her pelvis is canted to the side right before she trots.

Really disappointing that addressing the feet didn’t help. Looking at old/new videos, I see some improvement in her way of going but I also see that the back bracing is more severe than in the original videos. I’m not a vet, but I think her toe-stabbing behind is more improved now than it was in the March 2019 video. Did you ever x-ray for sole-depth after shoes and equipack? I remember your post from her earlier last year, recall she was very uncomfortable then too - her toes were awfully long IIRC (not knocking you - I have been in the same position). Hope you can get to the bottom of all of this ASAP, since it sounds like her unsoundness has really put you through the wringer and you have done more than most people would to get to the root of her issues.

[Jealoushe]

A good read, your horse shows a lot of these signs

https://thehorse.com/15539/problems-in-the-horses-hip-and-pelvis/

[IPEsq]

@endlessclimb

Do you think she was moving equally bad in the ridden video?

I’m honestly starting to think I’m blind. I can see something but I always struggle to pinpoint what.

You are only going the one direction and I can tell you are helping her movement with your riding, but yes.

On the older video, I see a wider stance behind and I see actually more circumduction of the left hind with a bit more toe stabbing with the right hind. But she tends to look more lame with the hind leg that’s on the outside of the circle. In the recent videos, LH becomes stabby and shortened and while the stance is now a little more normal width behind with less circumduction, the cranial part of the stride is really affected on LH. You can see this more in the ridden video as she tries to engage the glutes on the dropped hip to pick the leg up when looking at her from behind. The quadriceps muscles look strained to finish the stride. What looked a bit like SI or lower back issue to start (and possibly hind foot issue) turned into a hitchy one-sided gait abnormality with a strange look to the movement of the pelvis. She appears the most lame at the walk.

It looks very suspicious like a fracture somewhere. Given the fall, I would for sure work up that possibility before you keep trying to exercise her.

[PeteyPie]

I really hope you have stopped longeing and riding her. Stall rest is the recommended treatment for pelvic fractures, and until you rule that out, she should not be moving a lot. In addition to causing her pain, you could be increasing the damage and delaying the healing process.

Have you read any of the articles which people have posted here? That last article posted by Jealoushe outlines the tests needed to diagnose pelvic problems, namely rectal palpation, ultrasound, and on occasion, X-Rays. I hope you have called a good vet.

[endlessclimb]

@IPEsq

You are only going the one direction and I can tell you are helping her movement with your riding, but yes.

On the older video, I see a wider stance behind and I see actually more circumduction of the left hind with a bit more toe stabbing with the right hind. But she tends to look more lame with the hind leg that’s on the outside of the circle. In the recent videos, LH becomes stabby and shortened and while the stance is now a little more normal width behind with less circumduction, the cranial part of the stride is really affected on LH. You can see this more in the ridden video as she tries to engage the glutes on the dropped hip to pick the leg up when looking at her from behind. The quadriceps muscles look strained to finish the stride. What looked a bit like SI or lower back issue to start (and possibly hind foot issue) turned into a hitchy one-sided gait abnormality with a strange look to the movement of the pelvis. She appears the most lame at the walk.

It looks very suspicious like a fracture somewhere. Given the fall, I would for sure work up that possibility before you keep trying to exercise her.

Thanks for the explanation. I really appreciate it.

I’m thinking it may be a fracture as well. The extended period of time she has been on high doses of prednisolone in the recent past likely weakened her bones (common side effect, if I’m not mistaken). The fall may have sealed the deal.

I’m heart broken honestly. I dont know how to deal with the competing interests of managing the cancer with steroids, and now this injury.

Vet is coming Monday.

[Jealoushe]

@endlessclimb

Thanks for the explanation. I really appreciate it.

I’m thinking it may be a fracture as well. The extended period of time she has been on high doses of prednisolone in the recent past likely weakened her bones (common side effect, if I’m not mistaken). The fall may have sealed the deal.

I’m heart broken honestly. I dont know how to deal with the competing interests of managing the cancer with steroids, and now this injury.

Vet is coming Monday.

Hugs

[IPEsq]

@endlessclimb

Thanks for the explanation. I really appreciate it.

I’m thinking it may be a fracture as well. The extended period of time she has been on high doses of prednisolone in the recent past likely weakened her bones (common side effect, if I’m not mistaken). The fall may have sealed the deal.

I’m heart broken honestly. I dont know how to deal with the competing interests of managing the cancer with steroids, and now this injury.

Vet is coming Monday.

Horses can recover from a broken pelvis, and while her expression and the way she is holding her back suggests she is in some discomfort, she is not nearly as lame as some broken pelvis cases I have seen in the past that healed up ok (and horses returned to work). Don’t blame yourself for the steroids. It really just takes the right kind of trauma and can happen to any horse. I do think it’s important to try to get an accurate diagnosis though so that you can be sure what you do in the meantime doesn’t impede healing and will hopefully restore function to the atrophied muscles.

[endlessclimb]

@PeteyPie

I really hope you have stopped longeing and riding her. Stall rest is the recommended treatment for pelvic fractures, and until you rule that out, she should not be moving a lot. In addition to causing her pain, you could be increasing the damage and delaying the healing process.

Have you read any of the articles which people have posted here? That last article posted by Jealoushe outlines the tests needed to diagnose pelvic problems, namely rectal palpation, ultrasound, and on occasion, X-Rays. I hope you have called a good vet.

Thanks for the reply, petey. Of course I read the articles. I do hope that you understand that this horse has lymphoma as well as all of her other problems, and has been to Purdue on my dime many many times to try and determine what is wrong with her (in addition to the multiple cancer related trips). This atrophy has come on in the last week. The lameness is not pronounced comparatively, and doesn’t get worse. I’m not really sure what you’re trying to convey here in regards to you really hoping that I’ve stopped lunging/riding her. I posted this yesterday, so the new issues have not been ongoing for months.

If it’s a pelvic fracture, it’s the end of the road for her with all her additional complications. She’s not a candidate for extended stall rest compounded with all of her other issues.

I have the best local sports vet coming Monday. If she needs to go to Purdue again, she will.

[endlessclimb]

@IPEsq

Horses can recover from a broken pelvis, and while her expression and the way she is holding her back suggests she is in some discomfort, she is not nearly as lame as some broken pelvis cases I have seen in the past that healed up ok (and horses returned to work). Don’t blame yourself for the steroids. It really just takes the right kind of trauma and can happen to any horse. I do think it’s important to try to get an accurate diagnosis though so that you can be sure what you do in the meantime doesn’t impede healing and will hopefully restore function to the atrophied muscles.

I have to say, if it’s a pelvic fracture it will be the end of the road for her. I promised her from the first cancer diagnosis that I wasn’t going to let her go out in a heap, that she was going to go out like a badass. 9+ months of stall rest isn’t in the cards.

[joiedevie99]

@endlessclimb

I have to say, if it’s a pelvic fracture it will be the end of the road for her. I promised her from the first cancer diagnosis that I wasn’t going to let her go out in a heap, that she was going to go out like a badass. 9+ months of stall rest isn’t in the cards.

I’m so sorry you’re facing such challenges with this horse. You’ve done so much for her. I hope it’s something simple for your sake, but I do believe that is the right choice in this situation if that is the diagnosis. Hugs

[endlessclimb]

If this is as serious as it looks, pretty much all roads that could cause rapid atrophy are a dead end for her. I’m not going to take anything away from her now. And, for better or worse, in the time between now and a diagnosis, she’s going to go outside with her friends, and roll in the snow, and torture my ‘old man’ gelding who she believes is her personal slave.

She really was looking better than she had in a long time. I was really hopeful because it looks like the efficacy of the pill form of the prednisolone is way better than the compounded stuff, resulting in her problematic masses shrinking finally. The mass I had removed because the skin had split open (and had big complications with) hasn’t come back, which was a relief. We were doing great. Taking lessons. I was going to put my new jumps outside again in a few weeks. I made camping reservations for summertime, and I was going to have her next set of shoes drilled and tapped for some cross country schooling.

This sucks.

[beowulf]

No use borrowing trouble or stressing yourself out with the unknown – you will get answers when the vet comes on Monday… Lots of jingles for you and your mare.

If it is a pelvic break… check out that URL I sent earlier - it’s a study done about race horses and pelvic breaks. Pelvic injuries can and do have good prognosis.

My gelding, as I mentioned, broke his pelvis in three places that we could see. He was on stall rest for 2 months, then graduated to a medical paddock (12x40ish?) 24/7 for another 2. At the 4 month mark he went in a small standing. By six he was on the grass acre. He was back with the herd within 7 months of the injury. It sucked for sure. He was so uncomfortable, so lame, that I was considering euthanasia - your mare is a thousand times more sound than my gelding was the day of the accident. My vet talked me out of putting him to sleep and I am so glad I listened… but you will know what is right, when the time comes and you have more information about what is at hand. Trust your gut and keep us updated… thinking of you two.

In my experience this is usually what a pelvic fracture looks like and it gets worse once you get to trot:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Hr79qg8WUE

[endlessclimb]

Change of plans.

Monday appointment with local vet cancelled. He doesn’t think his equipment is powerful enough to correctly diagnose.

Wednesday she will go to Purdue, where my “frequent flier mile” vet has already seen the videos, and strongly believes it to be a pelvic fracture. I do not anticipate her coming home.

[Jealoushe]

@endlessclimb

Change of plans.

Monday appointment with local vet cancelled. He doesn’t think his equipment is powerful enough to correctly diagnose.

Wednesday she will go to Purdue, where my “frequent flier mile” vet has already seen the videos, and strongly believes it to be a pelvic fracture. I do not anticipate her coming home.

Hugs to you both, sending positive vibes.

[NaturallyHappy]

Hugs to you-I’ve been following and wish you the best. Videos can be misleading sometimes…

[RainWeasley]

I really, really am hoping for the best outcome. Hugs and good vibes and all of that to both of you and I’m so sorry.