Holistic ulcer medications?

[flyracing]

Holistic doesn’t mean drug free in all circumstances. It’s more of an approach to care and not a anti-drug campaign. If your horse has confirmed ulcers, the holistic vet should still recommend gastrogard treatment, because that is the standard of care. A drug free vet practice would end up in front of the vet board pretty quick for failure to meet standards.

My point is, the holistic vet may surprise you. And then your BO/family can get off your back once their vet recommends it.

Is there is any way you can thank them for your input and apologize that this is what you think is best for your horse? I know it sounds to simple, but if it won’t break up the family, they can just deal with it. Having strong beliefs about something is great, but putting those beliefs strictly on to someone else who doesn’t feel the same way and in no way affects the person pushing their ideas is a big pet peeve of mine

[SuzieQNutter]

I have met people who go too far with Holistic.

I have met a vet that goes too far with Holistic. In Australia so hopefully you don’t get him.

It is not pretty and leaves me cynical about it.

Use your head. Holistic can be good. Holistic can be bad.

Feed on the ground so as saliva can run down his throat to eat.

Feed a small amount of alfalfa half an hour before work or travelling, even if only 1/4 of a biscuit. Alfalfa is s buffer.

Reduce grain.

If feeding chaff make sure it is long chopped.

Remove any radio from the stables/paddock.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=ladymcts;8071734]
I know this isn’t what you’re asking for, but how’s the horse’s worming situation? I too am in a boarding situation where the barn owner is requesting\insisting on natural approaches. While I’d love to believe it CAN be done, in our particular situation, the worms are getting out of control. My own two are getting chemical dewormers as needed in response to fecal checks (one boy keeps coming clean the other keeps coming positive). But others on the farm have been pooping out visible worms.

If you have a similar situation where yours is either not under control because you’ve been using natural, or you think yours is under control but others are not, your horse’s gut could be compromised as a result. I’ve heard more of colic in response to deworming after a heavy load, but it seems to me just from a purely speculative point that worms attacking the horse’s insides can’t be good for it either.[/QUOTE]

I appreciate looking at all aspects. I used chemical wormers for years but the past couple years I have been doing stool samples every six months which always show 0 worm count. The day he had colic we had done another fecal sample and the vet could not find evidence of a single worm. I am of course going to worm for tape but my horse is not thin. He is a tad slighter this year but I am not sure if that is too worrisome as typically heavy and I actually think his weight is pretty good at this time, also I had run out of our super good hay and been feeding local hay. However I am about to purchase him some beautiful alfalfa/timothy blend I am pretty sure he will love. My horse eats pretty much every speck of hay I give him.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=flyracing;8072347]
Holistic doesn’t mean drug free in all circumstances. It’s more of an approach to care and not a anti-drug campaign. If your horse has confirmed ulcers, the holistic vet should still recommend gastrogard treatment, because that is the standard of care. A drug free vet practice would end up in front of the vet board pretty quick for failure to meet standards.

My point is, the holistic vet may surprise you. And then your BO/family can get off your back once their vet recommends it.

Is there is any way you can thank them for your input and apologize that this is what you think is best for your horse? I know it sounds to simple, but if it won’t break up the family, they can just deal with it. Having strong beliefs about something is great, but putting those beliefs strictly on to someone else who doesn’t feel the same way and in no way affects the person pushing their ideas is a big pet peeve of mine[/QUOTE]

I may very well get the holistic vet I am open to hearing what they have to say and I am sure they will have good ideas. Honestly between the colic and gastrogard I have spent allot lately and am hoping to go avoid additional vet bills unless I am worried about him. He has just got a slight rash on his neck I suspect that he is sensitive to spring bugs which are just starting to appear

I am ultra-paranoid about ulcers recurring. My horse was never thin, never grinds his teeth and has a puppy dog personality so never had obvious signs of ulcers. However when my vet had put the tube in with oil and water during his colic she had smelled strong acid so thought ulcers were possible. The first colic was mild and responded to a shot of banamine but my vet had given me 12 days of ulcer medication. At that point she did not think ulcers were very likely but was throwing everything she could at a Sunday morning colic, I had done the 12 days I had been given and then stupidly stopped when I ran out. Two weeks later the second colic, now I refuse to take him off of gastrogard for at least the full eight weeks but I am so worried what if after eight weeks they come back. I am thinking I may have to treat him then gastrscope a few months later to be sure he is okay, I just don’t trust my horse to show obvious clinical signs he is like a big dog and obsessed with food.

[Maude]

The only way to know if your horse does or does not have ulcers is to scope him.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=Maude;8073573]
The only way to know if your horse does or does not have ulcers is to scope him.[/QUOTE]

This is true however after his colic I had started on gastrogard. He had only been on the treatment for four days yet surgeon thought there was already a risk that ulcers could be hard to determine. Apparently you need to scope before you start the treatment to be certain of the results. That is why I am thinking a few months after we finish the gastrogard.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=jn4jenny;8066047]
I understand that sometimes when you board with family, compromises must be made…but go into with your eyes open, understanding that pleasing your family-BO may have financial consequences. Some horses do fine on natural maintenance regimes. Others won’t, and then you’ll have to pay for more ulcer treatment.

But these are pretty commonly used for ulcer prevention, including in commercial blends like SmartGut: slippery elm, marshmallow root, licorice root, oat flour (for hindgut ulcers), and papaya juice. If you search the forums for those ingredients, you’ll land on the right threads for dosages and sources. Management changes can make a big difference too, meaning more free-choice forage overall, more turnout time, adding some alfalfa to the diet (<–it buffers stomach acid), etc.

Signed, someone whose friend and barnmate once went off the deep end with researching natural ulcer treatments, which is how I learned all of this.[/QUOTE]

Thankyou I will try and find something with these ingredients. I just have to have a product that’s easy to get in Canada as allot of products do not ship to Canada. I do greatly appreciate everybody’s responses. I just really hope to keep this horse healthy.

[borntobewild129]

good for you to sticking to it, abruptly taking them off gastrogard/ulcergard without a weaning period is really bad because the acid comes back 10 fold and then you’ve gone full circle with the ulcers, you will have to do half for a month after and then a quarter dose of ulcergard, very annoying i feel you lol. My horse was treated 3 times for ulcers within a year and he is finally clean and i moved him to a way better barn than where he was at. He’s currently on smartgut ultra and succeed, they work wonderfully. the succeed is a pro/prebiotics and its for ‘hindgut’ ulcers or acidosis and the smartgut ultra has aloe, slippery elm etc in it to protect the lining. He is also on sucralfate but thats still medicine but it’s kind of like the medication version of aloe. And also definitely try aloe vera juice, i’ve heard great success with that and if my horse wasn’t on sucralfate i would definitely use aloe :))) goodluck to you and your horses

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=borntobewild129;8076931]
good for you to sticking to it, abruptly taking them off gastrogard/ulcergard without a weaning period is really bad because the acid comes back 10 fold and then you’ve gone full circle with the ulcers, you will have to do half for a month after and then a quarter dose of ulcergard, very annoying i feel you lol. My horse was treated 3 times for ulcers within a year and he is finally clean and i moved him to a way better barn than where he was at. He’s currently on smartgut ultra and succeed, they work wonderfully. the succeed is a pro/prebiotics and its for ‘hindgut’ ulcers or acidosis and the smartgut ultra has aloe, slippery elm etc in it to protect the lining. He is also on sucralfate but thats still medicine but it’s kind of like the medication version of aloe. And also definitely try aloe vera juice, i’ve heard great success with that and if my horse wasn’t on sucralfate i would definitely use aloe :))) goodluck to you and your horses[/QUOTE]

Today he was mildly off or very mildly colicky. He was off his feed so I called the vet. He had very slow gut sounds, and some extent of dehydration but other wise the vet felt was not showing signs of pain as he was not pawing, not laying down and not rolling. After an oil tube and banamine he seemed okay again as in I don’t want to walk I just want to eat. As he has been on gastrogard for a month stomach ulcers seem unlikely cause. I do wonder about hind gut ulcers but again he really does not have obvious clinical signs. I will continue the gastrogard treatment regardless and maybe then add a general digestion supportive supplement. Also going for low sugar alfalfa/timothy blend.

[judybigredpony]

It’s unprofessional for a BO to tell a paying client what Vet they can use…and unless her farm came with the provision it was Organic Requesting you stop a proven treatment that is working is over stepping. It’s your money not hers, your horse not hers. Holistic all natural certainly has its place. But we certainly have improved our horses lives with modern medications…especially in the Ulcer field…

[CHT]

Have you tried pre/probiotics? Might help with the mild colics. I hope you find something that helps your horse.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=CHT;8078254]
Have you tried pre/probiotics? Might help with the mild colics. I hope you find something that helps your horse.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]

Thanks I am hoping to find a good supportive supplement including pre biotics and pro biotics. But I am thinking the gastrogard should help protect his stomach in the mean time. My vet wonders if his colics could be caused by a fat embolism or something.

[rcloisonne]

@Fharoah;8078179

Today he was mildly off or very mildly colicky. He was off his feed so I called the vet. He had very slow gut sounds, and some extent of dehydration but other wise the vet felt was not showing signs of pain as he was not pawing, not laying down and not rolling. After an oil tube and banamine he seemed okay again as in I don’t want to walk I just want to eat.

Hopefully your vet also tubed a good amount of water into him as well. Banamine and other NSAIDs should never be given to a dehydrated horse. Very bad for the kidneys.

This may sound harsh but you’ve had a number of issues with your horse over the years due primarily to the lack of adequate management at this place owned/run by relatives. If you can afford 2 months worth of Gastrogard you can afford to move him to a better place.

If it was my horse I’d also be looking around for another vet. Dx ulcers by breath smell is ridiculous! Horses produce acid pretty much 24-7 so of course one that hasn’t eaten in awhile due to colic may have a slightly acidic odor to their breath.

Regarding the latest episode: Delayed gastric emptying can be a side effect of omeprazole. Did your vet try to pull up any stomach contents before oiling? While gastrogard and other drugs in this class are fairly benign they are not harmless. Someone needs to make a concerted effort to determine the cause of his frequent colics. Might be a good time to ultrasound some of his digestive track?

IMO, finding a better living situation for your horse should be your priority rather than throw questionable and unproven supplements at him. IMO, he’ll just continue to suffer health issues at this place. I think you know that too.

[SuzieQNutter]

Something must be causing the colic symptoms. If nothing else is found there is a machine that can scan for enteroliths now.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=SuzieQNutter;8078449]
Something must be causing the colic symptoms. If nothing else is found there is a machine that can scan for enteroliths now.[/QUOTE]

What kind of machine? I think he will be visiting the surgeon I trust for an assessment and possibly an internal medicine specialist whom visits the same clinic. This horse means allot to me and I will try and figure this out. Thus episode was far milder than the others, it’s possible if I hadn’t called the vet he would have resolved it himself. I took pictures of him this week and got so many compliments his weight is perfect and he so beautiful.

[RhythmNCruise]

[QUOTE=Fharoah;8073422]
He is a tad slighter this year but I am not sure if that is too worrisome as typically heavy and I actually think his weight is pretty good at this time, alsoI had run out of our super good hay and been feeding local hay.[/QUOTE]
This could very well be your culprit. This winter I switched from the Timothy/Orchard I normally get (trucked in from upstate NY, I’m in NC) to locally grown Coastal Bermuda. All of my horses had eaten Coastal at some point in their lives, so I figured it was no biggie. It was lovely, green, soft, sweet hay. My 7 year old that I’ve owned for 6 years and has never shown even a hint of a colic symptom colicked twice in a matter of six weeks. Both resolved on their own though I had the vet out anyway the second time. She seemed stumped and mentioned ulcers, but I knew better. The only change in his world was the hay. I also noticed reduced manure output, and it was dry and small and occasionally covered in mucous (a sign it has been in his gut too long).
I switched back to the slightly more expensive (but darn sure cheaper than emergency vet visits or colic surgery) T/O imported hay, and he’s back to his old self. Beautiful poop, LOL!

Get that pretty alf/tim hay ASAP. That may be all it takes. Can’t get much more holistic than that!

[Fharoah]

Think we will go ahead and gastroscope him that will tell us if has ulcers present or not. Then we can take it from there. I admit I am kicking myself for starting treatment without scoping I just want to know.

[Fharoah]

[QUOTE=RhythmNCruise;8079277]
This could very well be your culprit. This winter I switched from the Timothy/Orchard I normally get (trucked in from upstate NY, I’m in NC) to locally grown Coastal Bermuda. All of my horses had eaten Coastal at some point in their lives, so I figured it was no biggie. It was lovely, green, soft, sweet hay. My 7 year old that I’ve owned for 6 years and has never shown even a hint of a colic symptom colicked twice in a matter of six weeks. Both resolved on their own though I had the vet out anyway the second time. She seemed stumped and mentioned ulcers, but I knew better. The only change in his world was the hay. I also noticed reduced manure output, and it was dry and small and occasionally covered in mucous (a sign it has been in his gut too long).
I switched back to the slightly more expensive (but darn sure cheaper than emergency vet visits or colic surgery) T/O imported hay, and he’s back to his old self. Beautiful poop, LOL!

I don’t think the local is an issue because it is a source of hay for the past couple of years. Also I had been feeding a mix of the expensive good hay. I am less concerned about the local hay as our four other horses have never had a problem. Granted my horse had never had a problem a day of his life in the first up until this February However I am going to get that beautiful timothy I know my horse will go crazy for that hay.

[Fharoah]

Thank you every one I have greatly appreciated your replies.

My horse is now on week five of gastrogard and I have just lowered the dose to half tube. Naturally I a worried what if he needs to be on a full dose for a longer amount of time, but because I do not want to take a blind guess I am going to follow the 4 weeks full dose well we actually did 5 weeks full tube, 4 weeks 1/2 tube, 4 weeks 1/4 tube. Follow up with lovely low sugar alfalfa timothy blend but am thinking and wondering about excell http://www.depaoloequineconcepts.com/products/excel. Has anybody tried this product. I know the barn owner would prefer me to use organic product but that may be near impossible. One positive thing is I am now in charge feeding breakfast and dinner. Owner gives hay or turns the horses out on grass during the day well I am at work but I do morning and evening and late night feeds so I have a bit more control plus I get to see that my beauty every morning before work and after work too, he is a total blessing. I am certainly going to follow up with a gastroscope but I have to wait until he has been off the gastrogard a while.

[Fharoah]

My horse seems to be doing well now. He has a very shinny coat, seems happy and no clinical signs of ulcers. I did not use any supplements after the gastroguard other than a good quality timothy that has a small percentage of alfalfa in it. I have also taken all soy out of his diet, not sure if soy was an issue but this is the first summer he is not rubbing his tale. Internal medicine specialist had said a soy allergy could have contributed to his colics so I have decided to eliminate soy.