Sounds like they lost Dollar yesterday to colic at the age of 21 (from Bokt). What a blow for La Silla.
[QUOTE=baywithchrome2;6230717]
I’m a fan of the Holsteiner but the thread title and discussion appear to totally disregard the HUGE presence of Polydor as the broodmare sire in Sancha LS’s pedigree. There is no doubt that Sancha is sired by a Holsteiner-blooded sire and her dam line is that of a Holsteiner, but given that her dam sire is Westfalen and to the best of my knowledge never approved in Holstein, how can she be anything other than a 3/4 Holsteiner-blooded mare?
But more importantly, when you look at the direct branch of Sancha’s motherline, its only when the Rheinland-based breeder put Polydor into the breeding equation that a common branch of this motherline was transformed into a line of international competitors and producers. Sancha’s dam, sired by Polydor, was a 1.6m horse ranked as high as 114th in the world with Jan Tops. Her three full siblings, all by Polydor, were also 1.5-1.6m competitors including the approved stallion Poor Boy, competed by Beat Mandli.
And look at the production success of Sancha’s Polydor dam (Sonora La Silla)… she has produced 4 international competitors, including Sancha. The other three were sired by SF-blooded horses, Fergar Mail, Dollar De La Pierre and Zeus.
Sonoroa’s full sister by Polydor is the dam of Zandor Z.
So, no disrespect to Chin Chin or the Holsteiner motherline, but the influence of Polydor on this direct branch appears undeniable to me. Perhaps it is the synergistic cross combination of this Westfalen blood with the Holsteiner motherline? Afterall, 4 of the 13 approved stallions from stamm 4965 are Rheinlander registered and carry the blood of Pilatus through his sons Polydor or Pilot.
Food for thought :)[/QUOTE]
I agree with you BWC excepting the fact that you can’t give credit to every horse in the pedigree when someone wins. The father is a Holsteiner and the motherline is Holsteiner…period.
The Polydor mare is very good. So is Chinn Chinn and so is this stamm.
Could have been Heraldik xx or Quidam de Revel in the slot where Polydor is…still a Holsteiner.
It has been known for many years that Polydor daughters out of Holsteiner mares have worked beautifully in Holsteiner breeding…especially with Cantus.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;6229368]
Why is La Silla so successful in placing Mexican bred horses with International riders? There is not one single North American breeding operation that has such a record.
Yes, I know Mexico is considered North American, but to me, it’s more Central. Not English speaking, at any rate.[/QUOTE]
They breed and own nice horses.
Reece,
Any idea why Polydor was never approved by the Verband given his success with holsteiner mares?
[QUOTE=ponygirl;6231310]
Reece,
Any idea why Polydor was never approved by the Verband given his success with holsteiner mares?[/QUOTE]
No , but I’m sure they had one. I’ve seen several and they were not breeding types. They could all jump though.
Allison F. had an inter. jumping mare from Cantus / Polydor. The foals I have seen were not good.
Have to respectfully disagree with you here. I think you HAVE to give credit to every horse in a pedigree that when combined is a successful.
The way you’ve stated above implies that all that is important is the Sire and stamn line. When the fact is that its the coupling of all of those genetics that provided a result.
[QUOTE=hackinaround;6231435]
Have to respectfully disagree with you here. I think you HAVE to give credit to every horse in a pedigree that when combined is a successful.
The way you’ve stated above implies that all that is important is the Sire and stamn line. When the fact is that its the coupling of all of those genetics that provided a result.[/QUOTE]
No , what I am implying is this horse is 75% Holsteiner in the first 4 generations.
If you want to give credit to a horse that only represents 25% of the pedigree go right ahead. He (Polydor) obviously made a good mother here. Chinn Chinn was an Olympic stallion and has produced MANY inter sporthorses. The Holsteiner stamm is very good as well and between the two have supplied 75% of the genetics to Sancha LaSilla.
I didn’t set out to take away credit from any horse here… only give credit to the obvious.
The only one that can take 100% credit for this magnificent mutt is La Silla
Is the LaSilla studbook still a full autonomous member of the WBFSH?
[QUOTE=not again;6231825]
Is the LaSilla studbook still a full autonomous member of the WBFSH?[/QUOTE]
The answer is : Yes
http://www.wbfsh.org/GB/Members/The%20Members%20and%20Associate%20Members.aspx
I think you’re being a bit opaque here Reece. Is this mare graded Holstein? I believe she is not. Is she ELIGIBLE to be graded Holstein? I believe the answer to that is also “no”. So if she is not eligible to be part of the Holstein book she cannot be a Holstein can she?!
I’m not disregarding that 75% of her genetics come from Holstein graded horses but I do think BWC2’s post is excellent. This damline appears to have sprung to international significance by the addition of non-Holstein blood.
You people are unbelievable. We can’t even get past the most elementary deduction…and you wonder why the most knowledeable folks have stopped posting here ?
I said before…doesn’t matter who papered the mare. She was probably born at LaSilla and is papered by them. She is by a Holsteiner stallion and from a Holsteiner stamm. She is a Holsteiner mare just like the grass is green people.
technically…she doesn’t even need to be by the Holsteiner stallion. Like Terri said above , the fact that she is from a Holsteiner stamm is enough to call her a Holsteiner by most in the world.
And no Stolen Silver…this line just didn’t pop into prominence with the addition of Polydor. This exact line has produced Clinton I & II , Levisto , Cliostro , Daesy and an international jumping full sister of Clinton …PLUS the siegerhengste a couple years back… Cantoblanco by Canto out of yet another full sister to Clinton and many more international competitors.
As a matter of fact…the side WITHOUT Polydor is better !
Now you guys can go argue with a fence post…I’m done.
I am not a horse breeder, but I do enjoy these discussions.
So if the mare was sired by a TB stallion out of a Holsteiner stamm, would she still be considered a Holsteiner?
[QUOTE=Ravencrest_Camp;6232785]
I am not a horse breeder, but I do enjoy these discussions.
So if the mare was sired by a TB stallion out of a Holsteiner stamm, would she still be considered a Holsteiner?[/QUOTE]
Yes.
Heraldik xx / Landgraf / Corde la bryere stamm 474a is an example.
It’s the same as the mare in question. She is by Chinn Chinn / Polydor / Aladin / Falkenberg stamm 4965.
No matter what papers these horses hold or what studbook claims credit for the points , they are still Holsteiner horses.
same as if the horses were from French or Hannoverian stamms instead.
But Reece, with your two examples, Heraldik and Quidam de Revel, are approved Verband stallions. As you pointed out, Polydor was never approved by the Verband. If this mare was in America, she would not be considered a Reinzucht mare because she has non-approved Polydor in her pedigree.
To your point of not being able to give every horse credit… how do you disregard the broodmare sire? In this particular case, Polydor single-handedly transformed THIS branch of this stamm from obscurity into an international producer.
Yes, she is 75% Holsteiner blood, but given the data, I have to seriously question if this branch had not left Holstein and had Polydor blood injected, would this “magnificent mutt” ever be the topic of this thread? Credit should be given where credit is deserved. Congratulations to the breeders of this branch of this line who thought outside the box. :yes:
Only if the TB stallion is Verband approved.
[QUOTE=baywithchrome2;6232989]
But Reece, with your two examples, Heraldik and Quidam de Revel, are approved Verband stallions. As you pointed out, Polydor was never approved by the Verband. If this mare was in America, she would not be considered a Reinzucht mare because she has non-approved Polydor in her pedigree.
To your point of not being able to give every horse credit… how do you disregard the broodmare sire? In this particular case, Polydor single-handedly transformed THIS branch of this stamm from obscurity into an international producer.
Yes, she is 75% Holsteiner blood, but given the data, I have to seriously question if this branch had not left Holstein and had Polydor blood injected, would this “magnificent mutt” ever be the topic of this thread? Credit should be given where credit is deserved. Congratulations to the breeders of this branch of this line who thought outside the box. :yes:[/QUOTE]
Reinzucht has nothing to do with it. This branch has not left Holstein and has produced a long list of international sporthorses right where it’s at and without Polydor.
Clinton is Carolus I / Calypso II / Royal Washington xx…another example of hybrid vigor being put on top of this already incredible motherline.
No one is taking credit from Polydor…it’s the exact opposite. You guys are trying to take credit away from the Holsteiner father and the Holsteiner motherline and give all the credit to Polydor. I just pointed out to you above that an entirely different stallion , from an entirely different breed has even achieved a greater success with this motherline than Polydor.
The whole point is…Sancha is a Holsteiner mare , plain and simple. Holsteiner father , Holsteiner stamm. You think all that went away just because Polydor is the dam sire ? Noooope.
She’s a beautiful example of generationally breeding Holsteiners. Insert hybid vigor once every 4 or 5 generations , go right back to a Holsteiner father and BAM !
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6233104]
Reinzucht has nothing to do with it. This branch has not left Holstein and has produced a long list of international sporthorses right where it’s at and without Polydor.
Clinton is Carolus I / Calypso II / Royal Washington xx…another example of hybrid vigor being put on top of this already incredible motherline.
No one is taking credit from Polydor…it’s the exact opposite. You guys are trying to take credit away from the Holsteiner father and the Holsteiner motherline and give all the credit to Polydor. I just pointed out to you above that an entirely different stallion , from an entirely different breed has even achieved a greater success with this motherline than Polydor.
The whole point is…Sancha is a Holsteiner mare , plain and simple. Holsteiner father , Holsteiner stamm. You think all that went away just because Polydor is the dam sire ? Noooope.
She’s a beautiful example of generationally breeding Holsteiners. Insert hybid vigor once every 4 or 5 generations , go right back to a Holsteiner father and BAM ![/QUOTE]
Sugar you are proving our point. Give credit to THEM ALL not just the Holsteiner lines. You had good solid cooking threw in a little Polydor spice and the dish got an upgrade. Now when its made with the same traditional ingredients plus that little P’spice 5 stars…was it a bad 4 star dish before nope … but now its 5 stars. If you gave out the recipe without the spice it would still be good just not AS good.
[QUOTE=hackinaround;6233498]
Sugar you are proving our point. Give credit to THEM ALL not just the Holsteiner lines. You had good solid cooking threw in a little Polydor spice and the dish got an upgrade. Now when its made with the same traditional ingredients plus that little P’spice 5 stars…was it a bad 4 star dish before nope … but now its 5 stars. If you gave out the recipe without the spice it would still be good just not AS good.[/QUOTE]
You cant give credit to them all when you are reporting a result honey. My title was correct. Holsteiner mare wins 500k at WEF.
Even Alfonso Romo stated the same when he was interviewed after the win. “Tough little Holsteiner mare with the heart of a Lion”.
Time to move on to something a little more intelligent now…
[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6234034]
You cant give credit to them all when you are reporting a result honey. My title was correct. Holsteiner mare wins 500k at WEF.
Even Alfonso Romo stated the same when he was interviewed after the win. “Tough little Holsteiner mare with the heart of a Lion”.
Time to move on to something a little more intelligent now…[/QUOTE]
Tisk Tisk Bay insults are not a good look on you.
Now normally I defer to your fathomless knowledge about Holsteins and their ilk. However if you’re not able to converse without behaving like everyone who is not 100% in agreement with your path is deviant , its not really worth the hassle to acknowledge you.
This post long since left the realm the original brag. So exonerating that you only want to recognize 75% of the mares base . I am going to stick to giving Polydor some credit in her genetic amalgamation right along with the rest.
Nice mare and congrats to her owners/riders/breeders
