Holsteiner Verband Korung stallions

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;6591766]
Thanks, Bayhawk. It’s really quite impressive how the stallions in the list have kept the staple stallions separate, more or less. The doubles all are in the back part of the pedigree.

I, too, am shocked at the inbreeding on the Cantoblanco son. :)[/QUOTE]

The father Cantoblanco is out of the full sister to Clinton.

the young stallions mother is also a full sister to Clinton…on paper (Zarina and Waage are full sisters both bred to Carolus I ) . The entire pedigree besides the very top line from Canto is incest.

like I said…must be nice or it wouldn’t have been selected. I can be almost 100% certain this stallion will be entered in the auction and sold. They won’t breed with this.

[LadyLox]

This is a newbie question, but did Wendy have to take her horse over to Germany for this Stallion Approval?

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=LadyLox;6591838]
This is a newbie question, but did Wendy have to take her horse over to Germany for this Stallion Approval?[/QUOTE]

No , I arranged for her to buy the Coriano filly when she was born in Holstein. She has been raised and bred on the breeders farm ever since.

Wendy has done a good job breeding her there. Not only did she breed this Calido / Coriano stallion that has been selected for Nuemunster , she also bred her to Cormint and has produced an outstanding young mare as well.

Hope that helps “newbie”…LOL

[Dazednconfused]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6589575]

The better breeding tactic is when you see full brother / full sister in the same pedigree.

Askari is an example. Calypso and his full sister are there up close.[/QUOTE]

Somewhat unrelated to this topic, but I would appreciate your opinion/insight on Askari. One of my favorite horses in the barn I manage is by him and I would take 20 more…curious to hear what he often passes on (good/bad)…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;6591876]
Somewhat unrelated to this topic, but I would appreciate your opinion/insight on Askari. One of my favorite horses in the barn I manage is by him and I would take 20 more…curious to hear what he often passes on (good/bad)…[/QUOTE]

Askari is a very , very good stallion. I was in Holstein when he was approved and even from such a young age he demonstrated first rate jumping ability. He has a really good mind and very good basic gaits. His pedigree is outstanding.

Asca Z is a good son of Askari.

Silver Creek Farm has a really nice Askari mare from a Lord mother. sometimes they are big , sometimes small but most are attractive , correct and athletic.

[Dazednconfused]

Thanks for your insight Bayhawk. Sounds like this horse is very much like his dad, then. He is a jumper (decent success in the YJC) turned eventer (which he loves but struggles with the dressage as you might expect). He is out of a Ronald/Dialog I dam. Very attractive and good minded.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;6593198]
Thanks for your insight Bayhawk. Sounds like this horse is very much like his dad, then. He is a jumper (decent success in the YJC) turned eventer (which he loves but struggles with the dressage as you might expect). He is out of a Ronald/Dialog I dam. Very attractive and good minded.[/QUOTE]

Yeah…you generally won’t get dressage from this pedigree.

[DownYonder]

To get back to the abundance of “C” stallions - you have to go all the way to page 7 to find the first colt that is NOT from a C line foundation stallion.

By my count:
60 “C” line colts
4 Diarado sons
1 Dolany son
4 “L” line colts (3 by Larimar)
8 colts descended from Quidam de Revel
2 colts by Stakkato

Looking at it as from the outside as someone not well versed in jumper breeding, there sure does seem to be an over-proliferation of “C” line in Holstein. OTOH, Holstein does have the top jumper motherlines in the world, so is the primary goal to produce intensely linebred or even inbred MARES that can be used with stallions from other lines to produce big ring talent?

[DownYonder]

And what is with the Dolany son? If Holstein is focused on producing jumpers, why did they select a Donnerhall grandson for the Korung? Was it to placate the few dressage breeders there?

[Dazednconfused]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6593286]
And what is with the Dolany son? If Holstein is focused on producing jumpers, why did they select a Donnerhall grandson for the Korung? Was it to placate the few dressage breeders there?[/QUOTE]

The first horse listed is by Ampere, who is all dressage too…

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6593282]
To get back to the abundance of “C” stallions - you have to go all the way to page 7 to find the first colt that is NOT from a C line foundation stallion.

By my count:
60 “C” line colts
4 Diarado sons
1 Dolany son
4 “L” line colts (3 by Larimar)
8 colts descended from Quidam de Revel
2 colts by Stakkato

Looking at it as from the outside as someone not well versed in jumper breeding, there sure does seem to be an over-proliferation of “C” line in Holstein. OTOH, Holstein does have the top jumper motherlines in the world, so is the primary goal to produce intensely linebred or even inbred MARES that can be used with stallions from other lines to produce big ring talent?[/QUOTE]

There are TWO c lines that aren’t even related. Does anyone get this ?

Corde la bryere is one line and Cottage Son xx is another. They have set the showjumping world on fire for the last 50 years with these two lines.

You have L , two A’s , R , S , M lines etc placed in between the c’s. Look at Wendy’s stallion… Calido / Coriano / Contender / Laval I / Fernando. There are 3 c line stallions in a row coming here from Corde. One has to look at the mothers of the 3 c line horses.

Calido descends from Corde on a Roman / Aldato mare
Coriano descends from Corde on a Lord / Ramiro / Harras mare
Contender descends from Corde on a Ramiro / Ladykiller / Heidekrug mare.

Corde la bryere is a complete outcross to the Holsteiner mare base. The more he is in the pedigree , the more hybrid vigor he brings.

my friends have a stallion selected from Calido / Lord / Masetto / Ramiro/ Colonel stamm 776…this is heavy Cottage Son xx breeding. Guess what they will do with him if he is approved ? Right back on Corde mares !

before you get afraid of C , one should recognize how the two c’s work. If we didn’t have this blood there would not even have been Darco for BWP or Hickstead for the KWPN , much less our own world famous horses.

The blood needs to be admired and implemented here. They are trying not to concentrate it so much there , but we need it here.

Holstein will never and should never get away from the C blood. It just needs L or A or TB inserted about every 3rd or 4th generation.

[feather_river]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6593449]
There are TWO c lines that aren’t even related. Does anyone get this ?

The blood needs to be admired and implemented here. They are trying not to concentrate it so much there , but we need it here.

Holstein will never and should never get away from the C blood. It just needs L or A or TB inserted about every 3rd or 4th generation.[/QUOTE]

I said it quite a few posts ago–yes, we get that there are two C lines. No problem there, but as I also said, breeders in Germany will tell you Holsteiners need blood–new blood every time you breed to a Holsteiner stallion, you need to be adding new blood that is not in the stallion. Or the breeding direction will go backwards on you. You will not get that beautiful modern type you think you are going to get–you get that older, heavier horse of a few generations ago. The XX blood and the OX blood is being watered down in the 4th, 5th and 6th generations.

And Holsteiners don’t necessarily work well on all breeds. The mare you are breeding to a Holsteiner stallion should have as much XX or OX blood in her as is possible, mixed in over several generations. Breeding to a 25% XX/OX mare will produce disastrous results if you are wanting a modern type.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Dazednconfused;6593323]
The first horse listed is by Ampere, who is all dressage too…[/QUOTE]

Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Not sure how I missed him on the list!

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Bayhawk;6593449]
There are TWO c lines that aren’t even related. Does anyone get this ?[/QUOTE]

Yes, I know that. I probably should have said “C lines” instead of “C line” in my comment about “over-proliferation.”

It is just interesting to see something around 74% of the colts in the Korung coming from the two “C” line foundation stallions. Obviously, the breeders there feel those lines are the best for producing jumping talent or they wouldn’t be concentrating that blood in their gene pool as much.

I’m not being critical, I’m trying to learn. :winkgrin:

[RyTimMick]

@feather river;6593783

I said it quite a few posts ago–yes, we get that there are two C lines. No problem there, but as I also said, breeders in Germany will tell you Holsteiners need blood–new blood every time you breed to a Holsteiner stallion, you need to be adding new blood that is not in the stallion. Or the breeding direction will go backwards on you. You will not get that beautiful modern type you think you are going to get–you get that older, heavier horse of a few generations ago. The XX blood and the OX blood is being watered down in the 4th, 5th and 6th generations.

And Holsteiners don’t necessarily work well on all breeds. The mare you are breeding to a Holsteiner stallion should have as much XX or OX blood in her as is possible, mixed in over several generations. Breeding to a 25% XX/OX mare will produce disastrous results if you are wanting a modern type.

I suspect that you are not speaking to Germans in Holstein. IN GENERAL, you are correct about breeding in versus out. When you in breed too much they become shorter, and less refined. When you breed out, you bring in the Hybrid Vigor, longer legs, and generally more refinement.

Here is where you are missing part of this. The best breeders line breed to the out cross blood. When doing this you bring the blood forward, not the old type. Cor de la Bryere, is unique out cross blood because he is a SF who is also a half bred. This C you can use over and over and over, because you are breeding out, not in. He provided quickness and front leg technique, things often desired when breeding out.

2 years ago I bred my mare Calandra to Connor. Here is the pedigree.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/corsen+sr

You will see that I line bred to the half bred horse, and most importantly to Corde. The result was anything but heavy and old type.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qIwbYo19rXYI1g9yZuLZENMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

This horse only has one Capitol through Korrada, Corrado I’s full sister. The line breeding report shows the first 5 horses are either half breds or out cross stallions, and 4 of them are out cross stallions.

This horse is full of hybrid vigor. So much so, the FEH class he was entered into he received a 78.8, one of the highest scores in the country. They don’t like heavy type, I can assure you.

This is just an example, but you can point to it all the time. Especially the breeding sires and dams that are being used.

Tim

[why_not]

Holstein is aware of the risks of the little stallionchoice and opens now and then for some new blood. And so you can still breed a real Holsteiner, linebreed if you wish, but also add new blood into your foal. We did it for instance like this:

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/543843?levels=6

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=feather river;6593783]
I said it quite a few posts ago–yes, we get that there are two C lines. No problem there, but as I also said, breeders in Germany will tell you Holsteiners need blood–new blood every time you breed to a Holsteiner stallion, you need to be adding new blood that is not in the stallion. Or the breeding direction will go backwards on you. You will not get that beautiful modern type you think you are going to get–you get that older, heavier horse of a few generations ago. The XX blood and the OX blood is being watered down in the 4th, 5th and 6th generations.

And Holsteiners don’t necessarily work well on all breeds. The mare you are breeding to a Holsteiner stallion should have as much XX or OX blood in her as is possible, mixed in over several generations. Breeding to a 25% XX/OX mare will produce disastrous results if you are wanting a modern type.[/QUOTE]

“Holsteiners need new blood” ? “The breeding direction will go backwards” ?

Holsteiner is the #1 ranked studbook in the world. They have the #1 female family in the world and at last check had the top 2 ranked horses in the world.

They are hardly breeding backwards. Whomever is feeding you this information is obviously not from Holstein.

“Breeders in Germany will tell you” ? You might want to develop some friendships with the breeders in Holstein and you may learn a little more.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=DownYonder;6593897]
Yes, I know that. I probably should have said “C lines” instead of “C line” in my comment about “over-proliferation.”

It is just interesting to see something around 74% of the colts in the Korung coming from the two “C” line foundation stallions. Obviously, the breeders there feel those lines are the best for producing jumping talent or they wouldn’t be concentrating that blood in their gene pool as much.

I’m not being critical, I’m trying to learn. :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

Absolutely DY…they have developed their entire breed around these two C lines thus becoming the best in the world and helping other studbooks significantly upgrade their stock with C blood.

[Bayhawk]

[QUOTE=why not;6593933]
Holstein is aware of the risks of the little stallionchoice and opens now and then for some new blood. And so you can still breed a real Holsteiner, linebreed if you wish, but also add new blood into your foal. We did it for instance like this:

http://www.horsetelex.nl/horses/pedigree/543843?levels=6[/QUOTE]

Very good Harrie ! This is an interesting pedigree for folks to learn from.

[why_not]

The filly worked out very wel and got fohlenpraemie.