she’s not a current client, she’s the client of another trainer who talks $h!t about this trainer, because that’s this person’s barn culture, and now she wants to spread that nasty to the world via the internet. OP, please feel free to share your trainer’s name to confirm if she’s cool with you sharing her gospel? Gossip? With the world, because if so that’s definitely not a trainer i want to work with. If she’s not then probably shut up now.
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I have been sucked in by (and left) a couple of “trainers” like that over the years. Totally didn’t start a thread about it.
You would have more justified than the OP in this thread. OP has no connection other than knowing the person as an acquaintance.
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I second this. I find it odd, OP, that in a previous post you mention people not moving up because they might feel they are not good enough. With people like you and your trainer on the rail I cannot imagine why they would feel that way.
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I believe OP is new to dressage and to showing dressage. It’s true many folks go into dressage with highly optimistic ideas of what is possible locally or what the average level of riding is.
Some things to keep in mind.
Statistically most riders don’t get past first level.
I’m not sure what the stats are for trainers, but I’d guess that most local trainers don’t get past fourth level unless they luck into a ride on a GP school master. Certainly most local trainers have never brought a horse along to GP. I’ve certainly googled trainers who have no show record above second level. Or who have gone up to PSG averaging about 55 at each level, and not on off breeds. Or no show record at all.
Now this might vary by region! I’m perfectly willing to believe that in say California or Florida that no name local trainers regularly produce Grand Prix horses for their deep pocketed ammie clients and that dozens of AA ride PSG credibly at every show. But that’s not the case in smaller centers.
OP, the Equine Canada results search function is your friend. Whatever people brag about IRL or on their webpage, EC results can give you their lifetime scores in recognized shows.
You can quickly see if all those first place ribbons were because they were the only entrant in that test. You can see if they brought a horse up the levels themselves or just rode for one season on a borrowed horse. You can see the ages of the horses and previous riders. You can also search the results of their students.
On the other hand show record record does not necessarily correlate with good coaching. But it’s a nice reality check if someone is putting that forward as their claim to fame.
Do that a few times and you’ll stop being shocked by the gulf between reality and self presentation.
My sister is on the edge of the film industry. She says she always meets blowhards at parties, takes their business card, and looks them up on IMDB to find usually they were second grip on a student film 5 years ago or something like that.
EC results is more limited than IMDB but provides a similar reality check.
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I’m in California, and it isn’t THAT much different from the rest of the country, except we have more of everything. More shows, more moneyed riders (and also more non-moneyed riders), so I don’t think it is all that different. There are plenty of trainers here who have never ridden above 2nd or 3rd level, and make a living showing and coaching at Intro/Training level. Many trainers who have never trained a horse to the FEI levels. But, because we have “more” of everything, we also have more trainers who HAVE schooled multiple horses up the levels.
The majority of our riders still never make it past 2nd level. A lot of us are regular middle-class, working stiffs, just like the rest of the country. But, because we have “more” of everything, we also have a lot of wealthy AA owners in full training with FEI schoolmasters. Which makes showing a little more - intimidating - for the rest of us.
We are a big, densely populated state, so we DO see more of everything - more good riding, fancy horses, people in full training, etc. We have a lot of schooling shows, and you’ll see a lot of normal people there, and regular local trainers who have never ridden an FEI horse, forget train one up the levels.
If I had to guess, I’d guess there are at least 3 dozen “dressage” trainers within an hour of me each direction. And 6 or 7 of those who have trained multiple horses (aka at least 2 or 3) to PSG or higher. And maybe another 5 or 6 who have trained ONE horse up the levels, or have ridden one or two schoolmasters at the FEI levels. And at least half of those who haven’t ridden above 3rd level. The same, just more 
I don’t live in FL, but I suspect it is similar. More of everything, but also more of the same, just in more volume…
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Some very good points to consider. The show was the first “big” one I attended in the area. Before that I watched others in larger cities. That combined with the some amazing international pro riders we see online and on TV, perhaps I had different expectations of what most riders look like at that level.
It is a small relief to know that you don’t have to be a perfect rider to move up the levels in dressage and perhaps there is hope for me making it past training level someday.
Beside my “catty” comments, I do realize that everyone has an off day or a bad ride at shows, I was just taken aback by how rough the horse was ridden and should have approached my comment/question differently or not on COTH at all.
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Keep it off COTH unless you keep it VERY general. I talk about this stuff too. We all do. But it’s usually in private over wine and such.
We strive for perfection hoping to get there.
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It’s like only listening to albums by major rock legends then going to see a bar band in a pub. Like touring the great museums of Europe then going to see local Painters in the Park. Like reading Keats and Wordsworth then going to Open Mic Poetry Night at a coffee house. Etc etc.
The gap between pros at the top of their game and local ammies or small time pros, is immense. They don’t come up the same system, don’t go to the same show circuits, and even if they live locally are invisible at the levels us ordinary folk travel on.
As far as I can tell you don’t take a horse destined for international competition up through level one two three four. There’s a different system of FEI Young Horse Classes that funnel into showing PSG early on.
So no, videos of top international competitors are not accurate reflections of local riding club performance.
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THe Olympic effect is real. When you watch videos of the Charlottes and Isabells of the world, it is a major adjustment to see “regular” people riding, even at upper levels.
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This post really highlights some problems that I have been trying to reconcile between myself and the greater dressage community recently. Something about the “Olympic effect” combined with all kinds of “dressage theory” that is readily available here on the internet seems to make people think that they have been warranted the authority to speak about other people and their riding when that really don’t. People speak about other riders (professional or otherwise) and their skills, fitness, partnerships with their horse, financial means, etc. all the time. They really have no right to, and its downright toxic. I will be the first person to admit that I am guilty of it myself. I have made comments like this to friends, acquaintances, and strangers at horse shows even, like a total douchebag. I’ve said asinine things on this very forum, and I am pretty ashamed of myself now!
What shocks me the most about where this thread has headed actually, is how many people are dogging on the OP and saying that she needs to mind her own business, she is being petty, she is a training level rider so she doesn’t know the half of the work that it takes to put in even just a shoddy PSG test. Where are ya’ll in real life? Because 80% of dressage riders that I know are just as catty/petty/bitter as the OP. The dressage community that I know isn’t exactly a friendly one and I think it has been rubbing off on me. Now, that I am aware of how bad my attitude about riding has been in the past, I’m finding that the most effective way to change it has been to back away from dressage all together.
I agree that it was a crappy thing for her to come in here and try to insight a witch hunt, but over the past 5 or so years that I have been active or lurking on this forum [between a few different accounts] this post doesn’t seem terribly out of the norm.
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I’d say that developing a critical, evaluative eye for watching others ride is a very important skill, and you can certainly identify riders making gaffes at levels far above your own. It’s what you do with that eye that matters. If you were watching a friend ride you’d phrase it as a useful comment. Being able to recognize and evalaute doesn’t require that you also be petty, mean, or gloating.
On the other hand there are some built in paradoxes to dressage competition.
One is that the vast majority of riders and I dare say trainers as well are never going much beyond second level. But no one really wants to admit to that. So there’s a certain amount of hyperbole and maybe even self delusion, and then disappointment, etc.
A second thing is that dressage promotes lightness and obedience, but a certain percentage of trainers and riders are basically crank and spur. Horses ridden like that are not happy, and the people who ride like that often don’t find it satisfying.
A third thing is that on one hand, dressage is supposed to be about training. But dressage competition heavily weights the innate quality of the horse’s gaits.
Finally, unlike jumping, dressage judging is somewhat subjective. It’s clear to you and everyone else if you knock down a pole. It’s easier to be
cranky about dressage scores that don’t seem fair.
I would say that these various paradoxes can leave dressage riders a bit more touchy about criticism than a jumper might be.
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What a snob! To speak ill of a rider at a higher level than oneself says nothing about their ability and everything about your character. Perhaps some lessons in manners.
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The notion that you have to ride at a certain level or have spent a certain number of years in the industry to “earn the right” to call out poor riding or husbandry is illogical.
I once watched upper level rider take a dressage whip to the side of client horse’s face from the tack because she thought no one else was on property. I guess it was snobbish and speaks poorly of my character that I said something.
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In an effort to play a bit of a devil’s advocate to make this more of a discussion and not an attack on riders, I think what might make the OP’s jaw drop when watching upper-level rider’s with poor position might be something along the lines of wondering what happened to a rider’s basic foundation.
To a new rider to the scene, they may not have realized that there may be health reasons on why someone can’t obtain that perfect, balanced position at the upper levels. They may have been taught (as they should), about how riders should be balanced from shoulders to heel, sit back, elbows back, etc… and not understand why those with more experience than them aren’t doing that.
Some riders may be okay going out to show without having the perfect position and others may strive to obtain that perfect position for the show ring but to each his own.
Just like with jumpers, when I see a grand prix show jumper pitching with their knees, slamming on their horse’s back during the landing, and heels almost touching the saddle while over the fence, I do cringe while watching their round and have many questions that go through my head, mainly about the horse’s wellbeing and the rider’s safety. If I was younger and didn’t know any better, I would probably also think to myself, “what’s the point of working on my position and balance over this 2’ jump, when professionals are doing the exact opposite and are winning?”.
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Floppy rider = / = beating a horse up the side of the face with a whip.
calling out one is good, starting a thread on the internets about a bad floppy trainer your trainer doesn’t like floppin around all floppy at a show doesn’t make you a hero, it makes you a jerk.
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I don’t really jump much at all. Nevertheless I can watch Spruce Meadows International on TV and see when a horse is coming into a jump sucked back or on the forehand, and predict a refusal or crash.
I can watch a talented teen in the 3 foot hunters and see if she has following or crest release, and how stable her lower leg is.
I don’t ride saddle seat at all but I can watch a class and see that many horses are upside down, overbent and trailing behind.
I can watch a video online of a rider making a bid for the Olympic dressage team and conclude that her horse looks constrained and jammed up.
I can audit a Western horsemanship clinician and decide he is great in groundwork but brutal in the saddle and there is no way I am bringing my horse to his clinic.
Now I can’t give clear instructions to any of these folks on how to improve except the very basic “get off your horse’s face!” Or as the excellent hunter jumper coach I attended for lessons when I returned to riding used to shout, “do not pull and kick at the same time ever!” But I can see the problems.
I could definitely see if a local trainer looked like a sack of mashed potatoes at PSG, especially compared to other riders.
None of this is snobbery. It’s just having an eye. Your eye can be in advance of your ability.
Where you do need to be careful is in publicly criticizing local folks in a small pond. Not because you are wrong to see these things, but because it will get back to them. For instance, as soon as the show OP mentions posts on Equine Canada, if i care to, I will be able to figure out exactly who she means. I won’t know them personally. But I will be able to look at their websites, students show history, etc.
I’m sure there are members or at least guest lurkers here who are from the same area and could identify both the OP and the rider in question, indeed probably already have and are smiling a bit.
Way too small a pond.
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I think that situation is entirely different. Abuse vs. talking ill of rider’s positions…
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It’s ONE THING to POST …
wow I went to my first big show in real life and was really surprised at the disconnect between the quality of the riding that I see in the upper levels on TV, and what I see locally, is this an unusual observation?
AND A WHOLE NUTHER THING TO POST…
wow I went to (THIS SPECIFIC SHOW) , MY FIRST BIG SHOW, and was really surprised at the disconnect between the quality of the riding that I see in the upper levels on TV, and what I see locally IN THE TRAINER WHO WON THE PSG WITH A 57…is this an unusual observation?
AND STILL ANOTHER THING TO JUST PHONE A FRIEND AND SAY THE LATTER.
wow I went to (THIS SPECIFIC SHOW) , MY FIRST BIG SHOW and was really surprised at the disconnect between the quality of the riding that I see in the upper levels on TV, and what I see locally IN JANEY JONEY WHO WON THE PSG WITH A 57…is this an unusual observation?
SRSLY.
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I think there’s a huge difference between calling attention to or asking for opinions about the quality of riding in general or certain riding / training methods that are popular, and starting a thread with the sole intent of publicly bashing one specific person who doesn’t seem to be damaging the sport (as with the maestro) or publicly abusing a horse (as with the rider at Del Mar).
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