Horrific euthanasia - what went wrong?

[dressagetraks]

[QUOTE=Beverley;7877342]
For those who have had to experience this, and will in the future- it is true that that ‘running in place’ type of syndrome is simply involuntary muscle movement, no consciousness or awareness. I was in the operating room with one of my cats once, long story I won’t share, but you would be surprised at the body twitching that goes on when they are merely placed under general anesthetic. And in cases like the cat, they wake up just fine.[/QUOTE]

Once when I was undergoing knee surgery myself, under spinal anesthesia, the orthopedist took a time-out to ask me if I was feeling anything, as he said that my leg was twitching and trying to run away from him. I wasn’t feeling anything at all - and I was not sedated. I was perfectly awake. He said that he just wanted to double check, but he did say that a lot of muscle movement can happen routinely. So I know first hand how “disconnected” from any kind of volition or consciousness that was. Not a pain reaction, as I wasn’t feeling even a tickle. Whatever my leg was doing, it was doing all on its own.

ETA: Kt-rose, again, I have seen an excitatory response to ketamine in my gelding prior to surgery, and the vet said then that it happens sometimes with that drug. There doesn’t seem to be any guaranteed magic drug combination that 100% ensures that all will be peaceful.

[Fairfax]

I wish that euthanization by chemical injection was only responsible for a few “going badly” kills

I have had to have the vet come out, over the past ten years to euthanize 7 horses.

1. Stallion with a double twist, 5% estimate for recovery if operation completed and if he was able to handle the 4 hour trip to clinic…cost $20,000-25,000

Euthanization went BADLY… thank goodness he was outdoors…three injections…total time 14 minutes 20 sec (up…I timed)

2. 34 year old gelding. Owner made correct decision to euthanize him while he could walk etc. Surroundings peaceful. Owner not with us…VIOLENT DEATH. I am greatful she was not able to get off work. It was truly VIOLENT (not same vet)

3. Colt…not responding after 6 months of stall confinement due to broken hip. Owner decided to take into vet (not the above) and have him euthanized at their clinic. Took around 15 minutes and she said they gave three shots…vet would not give any more. He was thrashing but NOT getting up and down.

4. Gelding with ataxia… given one shot and gently went down on ground and died very peacefully.

5. Senior mare…27…owner took to Montana (which is where the owner lived) Took a long time to die and several shots ( I do not know how many exactly)

6. and 7. Both seniors and neither one eventful…much like number 4

I hear, more and more about the failures of chemical euthanization.

These vets are well regarded and I do not believe it is anything they did or didn’t do.

Why do vets not have a deadbolt gun as a backup? I do understand why many do not want to carry a shotgun.

[Secret_Dove]

When I had to put down my guy in 2007 due to colic I was not present for the euthanasia. I talked to the vet about being there and he highly recommended not being there. He told me that it’s not something that he even likes having to witness. I don’t think he wanted me to be traumatized. He actually waited for us to leave to put him down. After reading the stories in this thread and others on this forum I’m glad I didn’t stay. That’s not how I want to remember my horse.

OP- I’m sorry for the loss of your pony.

[Where_sMyWhite]

[QUOTE=Fairfax;7877633]
Why do vets not have a deadbolt gun as a backup? I do understand why many do not want to carry a shotgun.[/QUOTE]

When I talked to my vet a few years ago, he does not use a deadbolt gun but a handgun. I personally wouldn’t use either rifle or shotgun. You have more that enough lethal force in a well placed handgun shot.

Not even sure I think rifle or shotgun is appropriate if the horse is in a physically violent state and not approachable…

[PonyTales]

Sadly I’ve beared witness to euthanasia more times than I care to remember. Most have been peaceful & uneventful. The vet was actually able to perform all of them without any need for assistance from anyone. I usually attended anyways just in case something went wrong… Thankfully it never did. She always use tranquilizers to first put them to the ground.
One time a friend who didn’t have a vet nearby had a tragic situation on hand with VERY limited options. She thought that a bullet would be the simplest solution ? Did you ever see the videos at the slaughter where they shoot the stun gun again, again & again ? Getting a bullet placed in the proper position is not always the easiest thing to do. The horse may move, your hands could be shaky or your vision decreased due to tears in your eyes or maybe it was the high winds or blowing dust that caused interference. Anyways in this situation a tranquilizer was even used beforehand. On impact of bullet the mare surge upwards & bolted forward. She had an injury of a broken front leg just above the knee & her leg was flopping all over the place as she stumbled every which way. The look in hers eyes my friend will nvr forget. She feels that the final moments her mare lived were of betrayal. The mare was completely terrified, confused, pain-ridden. There was more blood than one could ever imagine. The image not easily (if ever) forgotten by my friend. The mare was NOT ready to die, did not want to die & fought with all her strength not to die. Tragic

[vandenbrink]

When the going gets rough, why don’t vets use death by Exsanguination (blood loss) to get it over with faster. It’s not pretty I get it, but at least it’s pretty fast. Have a good knife ready, just in case.

[DaniW]

I’m a small animal vet but saw several equine euthanasias in vet school. It sounds to me like a typical euthanasia.

Unfortunately, under the best of circumstances, the horse’s reaction is unpredictable and often violent. It’s not at all like a small animal euthanasia. They usually crash - they don’t just lie down quietly - and they usually convulse to a greater or lesser degree.

It’s just the physics of a large animal and the time it takes for the drugs to physically move throughout the body. With a small animal, you can get them to lie down so they don’t just fall, but you can’t do that with a horse or pony effectively.

With a small animal, you can give enough valium or other pre- med or sedative to limit more convulsions but not always. With a horse, I don’t think you can give enough to keep the convulsions from happening.

Its not just about giving more drugs either because the first part of the dose starts to work and slow down the heart so the rest of the drugs coming in are going even slower than initially.

I am sorry the vet wasn’t able to forewarn you well enough and wasn’t warm enough afterward but vets go through a lot and not every one of them has the bedside manner you’d like. It doesn’t mean that it didn’t affect them.

It takes a lot out of us to perform euthanasias even though they are necessary.

Some vets can only handle that by distancing themselves emotionally and for some it takes experience to learn how to handle your own emotions and at the same time console the owner.

[Alice]

This pony was fully mobile when the injection given. He ran backwards, then forwards, then fell down, got up, reared and fell backwards, then convulsed on the ground for a time.

If you can take me at my word that this animal was ambulatory - would you honestly call that a typical euthanasia? I feel if he had been a full sized horse would’ve killed or injured someone.

[trubandloki]

[QUOTE=Alice;7877912]
This pony was fully mobile when the injection given. He ran backwards, then forwards, then fell down, got up, reared and fell backwards, then convulsed on the ground for a time.

If you can take me at my word that this animal was ambulatory - would you honestly call that a typical euthanasia? I feel if he had been a full sized horse would’ve killed or injured someone.[/QUOTE]
Did you read the thread?
Reactions to the medications are not at all unusual. Period.

If you want to hate the vet then do it. But it does not sound like this euthanasia was done any more wrong than one that you would describe as going well.

[Alice]

[QUOTE=trubandloki;7877924]
Did you read the thread?
Reactions to the medications are not at all unusual. Period.

If you want to hate the vet then do it. But it does not sound like this euthanasia was done any more wrong than one that you would describe as going well.[/QUOTE]

I am not hating on the vet. I am questioning though. I worked for (small animal) vets for a long time and have a lot of respect for them, and know that a client’s perception can be different from the vet’s due to a lack of knowledge.

I am quite surprised to hear that it is considered normal for an equine to be able to run away after being sedated 3 times and injected with a euthanizing agent. Seems like a very dangerous situation for any vet or bystander.

Just so that I am clear: pony was NOT lying on side making galloping motions - he was actually running.

[vxf111]

I think the sad reality is that sometimes this happens and there’s little anyone can do. I am very sorry OP.

[Alice]

[QUOTE=vxf111;7877942]
I think the sad reality is that sometimes this happens and there’s little anyone can do. I am very sorry OP.[/QUOTE]

It appears you are correct. I will warn my friends to be very very careful if they are present during a euthanasia in the future.

Thank you for the condolences and thanks to all who took the time to respond. I really appreciate it.

[DaniW]

[QUOTE=beowulf;7872409]
OP, sorry for your loss.

Are there any studies published on why animals have the excitatory phase during euthanasia? Is it because certain parts of the brain ‘shut down’ before others (laymen terms here)?[/QUOTE]

All anesthetics involve an excitatory phase. The euthanasia solution ( barbiturate) is an overdose of an older anesthetic that isn’t used much anymore because of the tendency to overdose and cause respiratory arrest.

When anesthetizing for surgery, the anesthesiologist has to calculate the type of drug and the delivery method so that they get past the excitatory phase quickly but not so quickly that the patient is in too deep a plane of anesthesia.

They use a multi-modal approach so that as one drug is at its peak, another one can take over before the first one wears off - so you have the pre-med, the induction and the maintenance drug combos, including gas.

And, yes, it is different parts of the brain trying to wake the animal up - in fact, in CPR, currently many doctors are no longer recommending that a person attempting CPR try to breather for the person - that the brain will take over and make the person breathe ( the agonal breaths) more effectively than air forced in by another person’s mouth. But it is also a sign that the animal is unconscious. And the seizures or convulsions are not painful , just uncontrollable muscle movements.

[GoForAGallop]

I have seen two euthanasias, in being there for a friend.

The first was a 30+ year old mare who had gone down in the barn due to colic, was found after she’d been there for probably at least an hour or two. She was tired, and ready to go. We sat with her, crying, and she just closed her eyes and went to sleep.

The second was a ~15 year old mare with at least one visible tumor in her neck, who knows what going on internally. She was, on the whole, healthy. Vet sedated her, we walked her out to the place, said our goodbyes, she got the injection, and dropped immediately. Vet had someone at her head to help guide her down a bit, but she essentially sat down on her butt and toppled over. (Although she was “gone” before her butt hit the ground, that much was clear.)

I was happy to be present at both of those to support my friend, and (from a morbid point) see one happen and understand what goes wrong. But having read the horror stories on COTH, I elected not to be there when I had my mare put down earlier this month. I said my goodbyes to her, and left her in the trusted hands of my friend and trainer while I walked away. Nobody said anything to me about how it went, I wouldn’t have expected them to say anything even if it was horrible, but I was on property and the backhoe fired up real quick.

I am one of those people who is excellent in a crisis, but a blubbering mess when it actually comes down to the final moments. This was my first horse, but I have had to put down many cats and dogs. I have stayed with the few who died peacefully at home, but have always recruited a family member to go with me with those who need to go to the vet. I am always such a disaster that I never feel like I am going to be the needed calming presence in the room. Thank goodness there are those around me who can.

[DaniW]

Alice, I am really sorry for your loss. I really am and I am also sorry I did not say that before launching into my explanation.

[Alice]

Thank you. I appreciated your explanation!

[dressagetraks]

[QUOTE=Alice;7877912]
This pony was fully mobile when the injection given. He ran backwards, then forwards, then fell down, got up, reared and fell backwards, then convulsed on the ground for a time.

If you can take me at my word that this animal was ambulatory - would you honestly call that a typical euthanasia? I feel if he had been a full sized horse would’ve killed or injured someone.[/QUOTE]

That sounds exactly like my gelding’s reaction to the ketamine anesthesia at his gelding. Which the vet said does happen sometimes as a drug reaction.

Of the horses I’ve had euthed chemically, most were already down. One of those had some twitching/running on her side. One who was not down had a violent reaction but really less than the gelding’s to ketamine when he was being anesthetized for gelding.

The fastest I have ever seen was by gunshot. I did that myself. No one else around, vet was 45 minutes out at best, horse was in agony. I was channeling all the books/charts I’ve ever read and praying for accuracy, and my hands were steady then. I broke down later, but then, it was over. Immediately. I’m convinced he never knew what hit him. I’m not recommending doing it first time in an emergency as standard practice and am very grateful that it went well. I knew it could go wrong, and I’ve read up a lot more in case, but in an emergency, to spare him that wait in such pain, I am glad that the gun was available.

[GoForAGallop]

[QUOTE=dressagetraks;7878108]

The fastest I have ever seen was by gunshot. I did that myself. No one else around, vet was 45 minutes out at best, horse was in agony. I was channeling all the books/charts I’ve ever read and praying for accuracy, and my hands were steady then. I broke down later, but then, it was over. Immediately. I’m convinced he never knew what hit him. I’m not recommending that as a standard practice and am very grateful that it went well. I knew it could go wrong, and I’ve read up a lot more in case, but in an emergency, to spare him that wait in such pain, I am glad that the gun was available.[/QUOTE]

I feel blessed to have a neighbor with guns. I’ve spoken to him before about finding it comforting that he is right next door, in the case of a true emergency, and he has said that he would be over in a second to do it, but would be bawling the whole time. He raises beef cows and has had to put them down with a gun before, and said that he cried for days. These are cows that were going to be slaughtered/he was going to happily eat anyway.

It’s something that has to be done, of course, but it’s not easy, even if you have little to no emotional attachment to the animal. I imagine it’s why more vets don’t do it/recommend it.

[Cruisesmom]

Sorry for your loss OP.

[blairasb]

Have been present for both of my gelding’s euths.

The first one was not pretty. (teenage gelding, colic) When the first injection hit him, he went up full height and crashed over backwards, but was GONE.

two weeks ago we put my Stewie horse down after a year rehabbing a fractured pelvis (horse was improving but then started to backslide rapidly). vet sedated, and then injected. His was a much “prettier” euth- not as traumatic to watch, but in reality was not as “easy” as the other one. He took three injections to drop him and a fourth once he was down…