Horse bolts during mounting

[Feliz]

I don’t want to derail the thread - but thanks, mvp. The worst thing was that the breeder, who breaks them herself, never offered to help. I was in touch with her immediately (so after I’d had him less than 48hrs and the first ride had been fine).

@mvp

“Yanno… he’ll do it all, but he hasn’t really accepted that he has to do it all.”

So, so true. I sent him away to a trainer who is amazing getting them really broke. The mounting issue was fixed, but then after I’d had him back for a while he decided that rodeo bucks were useful when you just don’t want to go forward today . . . and that was it for me.

[planetlisa]

MVP, I’m interested in reading more about how you train standing still for mounting.

[TheHotSensitiveType]

Deleted, some of you posters can be a piece of work.

[PNWjumper]

@TheHotSensitiveType

This poor horse is a perfect example of why people who start horses need to be knowledgeable… He would be a beginner horse right now if he had been started correctly. Right now, he is experienced rider only and may be for a very long time if kept on the same path. If someone was to go back to punishing him, he would become unride-able, seriously.

I had one like this too. After coming off of him while starting him I sent him along to a cowboy and he became that cowboy’s “white whale.” Ultimately I gave him away (to the cowboy) because his panic reaction was pretty deadly.So the cowboy now owns him and I still hear stories (9 or 10 years later) about how he still comes off of him and still sees him as “the horse that he’ll fix one day.”

But I quoted this paragraph because I disagree that a true panicky horse like you describe has been ruined by a person or by how they’ve been started. The type of horse that truly really panics like you describe is one that will never be a horse suitable for a beginner. IME when a horse has been messed up by a poor rider the fix is usually relatively easy (or maybe not “easy,” but relatively simple, though potentially time consuming) given a new situation and a good rider. But horses that really really shut down in a blind panic? I think that’s a hard-wired thing that a human would be hard-pressed to “teach” a horse. So while yes, a person training poorly may play into the behavior, I don’t think it can create a horse that reacts like yours does (and like mind did). I think that some horses just aren’t wired right in the brain.

[sammy14]

You could watch these 2 vids for some ideas. There is a free trial period http://www.dressagetrainingonline.com/frontend/web/site/video?trainer_id=116&vid=445 Jody is extremely well educated and her methods are clear and science based.

[Palm_Beach]

@TheHotSensitiveType

This poor horse is a perfect example of why people who start horses need to be knowledgeable… He would be a beginner horse right now if he had been started correctly. Right now, he is experienced rider only and may be for a very long time if kept on the same path. If someone was to go back to punishing him, he would become unride-able, seriously.

EVERYONE who handles horses needs to be knowledgeable. I think if you spend more time on the ground with this horse he’d be fine. The hardest thing to teach people is that you cannot hesitate to go all they way back to square one with a horse if you think something may be amiss.

“I lined him up to the mounting block got on, got my stirrups, adjusted the reins, and squeezed… He panicked.” I would never have gotten on this horse without a little groundwork to see where his brain was. I do groundwork with EVERY horse EVERY ride. It might be as simple as give left give right step back, which takes all of 5-10 seconds, but I check the horse out mentally before mounting. You can blame the gate, but it was you, not the gate, that caused the problem. The horse was anxious and you did not address this before adding even more pressure by mounting.

[TheHotSensitiveType]

@PNWjumper, This horse does not display any of the spookiness nor the anxiety while loose which is why I think this is a human created problem. No doubt he is genetically predisposed to higher than normal anxiety levels is situations of stress, but if he had been taught relaxation under saddle when he was started instead of ‘bad things’ happen when people get on him, I really think he would be a different riding horse right now.

@Palm Beach

You can blame the gate, but it was you, not the gate, that caused the problem. The horse was anxious and you did not address this before adding even more pressure by mounting.

Wow @Palm Beach … A bit pissy? I said I messed up! I hear kicking people while they are down really helps them find those boot straps.

I realize a lot can be lost in text, but I went back to the very basics with this horse. I do ground work before every ride until he is relaxed. I have gone over what happened over and over and over to identify what I did wrong. I am 99.9% sure you would not have identified this horse as anxious in this situation (although you probably would have shut the gate). However, he is for sale so please come buy him and prove how much I suck!

I deleted my post. Thank you for reminding me I waste too much time on here.

[mvp]

@TheHotSensitiveType

@PNWjumper, This horse does not display any of the spookiness nor the anxiety while loose which is why I think this is a human created problem. No doubt he is genetically predisposed to anxiety is situations of stress, but if he had been taught relaxation under saddle when he was started instead of ‘bad things’ happen when people get on him, I really think he would be a different riding horse right now.

Before we delve into the (undecidable) “nature/nurture” debate and go around looking for people to blame and/or recommending that the horse be “restarted entirely” (without more specificity as to where the educational hole is), consider these things that are a tad unique to mounting.

1. The flight animal has to stand still while we climb up on his back. IMO, some horses can be more claustrophobic than others. I currently own a mare who is the most this way of any horse I have owned. More on what this means for her education later; my point is that standing still under pressure is a specific skill and problem for a horse.

2. It can be hard to read a horse while he is standing still or while we have done the (usual) kind of ground work that leads up to getting him to put all 4 feet on the ground and give us the impression that he’ll leave them there. Some horses are stoic and hard to read, so “stillness on the outside” doesn’t tell you about what’s going on with the horse’s mind and emotions.

3. Mounting tends to be a quick action. It’s often taught once and then assumed to be an installed skill forever. We also don’t like to spend a lot of time in the physically-vulnerable positions involved— standing in one stirrup, swinging your leg over and back, mounting from the right, etc. So this bit of the mounting skill amounts to we teachers not giving our horsey student a thorough-enough education.

My basic take on good mounting education is this:

1. The horse must be taught a general truth: It is better for him to stop and think under pressure than to react in a go-for-broke “fight or flight” way. Again, the problem is to change a habit of emotion and thought in a horse. I have had to do that with my mare and it has made all the difference, plus it has proven to be a “transferrable skill” between things like loading or mounting or not being an a-hole under saddle. If the wheels start to come off, I have a way to put them back on. That’s ridability.

2. The horse must decide to participate in being mounted. He must internalize your agenda and do it because of the power differential between you that will never go away: While you are in a physically vulnerable position and he’s a a great position for fight/flight (all four feet on the ground and balanced) you are screwed if you guys have a disagreement or he decides to disregard you because something more important comes up and he decides it’s “every man for himself.”

[TheHotSensitiveType]

@mvp Thank you for the thoughtful post, very insightful. I really enjoyed it, and it gave me a lot to think about.

Would you be able to describe some of the exercises you have done with your mare to work towards “changing the habit of emotion and thought?”

Here are the abridged mounting exercises I have done, both sides, without swinging leg over and head flexed back to me (mounting block and ground mounting). I learned how to mount from the right on this horse :). He is calmer mounting from the right if that helps with any suggestions you may have. He was doing all of these really well before I started actually putting my leg over his back.

• step up into stirrup, stand on side until he is relaxed and step down
• step up into stirrup, stand on side and rub other leg on side, flanks, haunches, when relaxed step down
• step up into stirrup, stand in the one stirrup and ask him to move off, bring back to halt, step down when relaxed

[Posting_Trot]

I don’t think I’d ask him to move off with you having just one foot in the stirrup. That sounds (to me) like you may be installing a behavior that you–later on–really don’t want him to practice.

I do think clicker-training is very helpful for teaching a horse to stand for mounting. It’s less the about the treats per se than it is about establishing a bound between you and horse in which you’re essentially asking him to do things that to him, as a horse, probably appear pointless and ridiculous (or maybe even scary), but then you praise him and make a fuss over him and, yes, give him a treat.

It really would be worth your while read up on clicker training. This youtube video is not terribly exciting, but it does move through the process of clicking and treating by breaking down the process into little steps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOuMOfnNi7o

You could also look at Alexandra Kurland’s book on clicker-training for horses.

Good luck.

[meupatdoes]

I had this exact issue with a training horse, to the extent that the first time I tried to get on him, I ended up in the dirt next to the mouting block and he was at the other end of the farm.

I picked myself up, dusted off, walked out to retrieve him (and was zero % aggressive or “showing him who’s boss” about), swung by the tackroom for a bag of treats, and then returned to the mounting block.

I pulled him up to the mounting block, fed him a treat.
Fussed around with the stirrup and saddle, fed him a treat.
Got up on the block, fed him a treat.
Reached over and fed him a treat from the right side, banged on the saddle, patted him on the croup, fed him a treat.
Put my foot in the stirrup, fed him a treat.
Put weight on that stirrup, fed him a treat.
Stood in the stirrup, reached over to the right side, and fed him a treat.

When I seung a leg over, he scooted a few steps, i asked him to halt, once he halted I fed him a treat. (No this is not rewarding him for scooting. It is rewarding him for halting and teaching him to ‘look for the halt’.)

I then rode as usual, and when we were done I hopped on and off 5 more times before putting him away. It is easier to practice at the end of a ride than the beginning.

After this session the problem was solved, and all ot took was treats for when he offered the right answer.

You catch more flies w honey, etc.

[meupatdoes]

@candyappy

We really need more info . Like age of horse, is he well broke, etc…

Just curious, how would your training response be different depending on the age of the horse?

[CanteringCarrot]

@mvp

Before we delve into the (undecidable) “nature/nurture” debate and go around looking for people to blame and/or recommending that the horse be “restarted entirely” (without more specificity as to where the educational hole is), consider these things that are a tad unique to mounting.

1. The flight animal has to stand still while we climb up on his back. IMO, some horses can be more claustrophobic than others. I currently own a mare who is the most this way of any horse I have owned. More on what this means for her education later; my point is that standing still under pressure is a specific skill and problem for a horse.

2. It can be hard to read a horse while he is standing still or while we have done the (usual) kind of ground work that leads up to getting him to put all 4 feet on the ground and give us the impression that he’ll leave them there. Some horses are stoic and hard to read, so “stillness on the outside” doesn’t tell you about what’s going on with the horse’s mind and emotions.

3. Mounting tends to be a quick action. It’s often taught once and then assumed to be an installed skill forever. We also don’t like to spend a lot of time in the physically-vulnerable positions involved— standing in one stirrup, swinging your leg over and back, mounting from the right, etc. So this bit of the mounting skill amounts to we teachers not giving our horsey student a thorough-enough education.

My basic take on good mounting education is this:

1. The horse must be taught a general truth: It is better for him to stop and think under pressure than to react in a go-for-broke “fight or flight” way. Again, the problem is to change a habit of emotion and thought in a horse. I have had to do that with my mare and it has made all the difference, plus it has proven to be a “transferrable skill” between things like loading or mounting or not being an a-hole under saddle. If the wheels start to come off, I have a way to put them back on. That’s ridability.

2. The horse must decide to participate in being mounted. He must internalize your agenda and do it because of the power differential between you that will never go away: While you are in a physically vulnerable position and he’s a a great position for fight/flight (all four feet on the ground and balanced) you are screwed if you guys have a disagreement or he decides to disregard you because something more important comes up and he decides it’s “every man for himself.”

This is important.

Clicker training (just basics so far) has really helped my new horse. He was reactive and nervous at this new place and alway backed up or away and was not confident in anything. He was strictly handled before, and I like that, but I also wanted him to be more confident while maintaining the discipline. Clicker training has encouraged his curiosity and confidence. He is now more apt to stop and think through it rather than immediately react. He learns very fast, so that’s a plus. If he encounters a new object, something in the woods, exercise ball, neon hula hoop, a dog toy, whatever I find, he is now more apt to approach it with curiosity and reaching. He now has confidence that when I introduce a new item to him, he can approach it and stay calm, and it’s not so bad. This helps with training in general. I can literally see him pause (shortly for a split second) and think, then proceed calmly, or be more comfortable and willing to try something new.

So sometimes it is about giving the horse confidence in you and also himself. Use positive reinforcement, make him feel good about himself. This horse does not feel comfortable with mounting and is not so confident hence his flight response. You can break it down to super basic mounting procedures, but you may have to do other ground work too.

When he does the right thing, he’s right, he must know it, and be rewarded. Soon he will be searching more for the right things and start to feel like things are more ok.

People often forget what a “delicate” thing mounting is, and how important it is for the process to be safe and comfortable. It’s a feature that must be installed correctly and maintained. It can be slow, but I brought a horse from being terrified of the block, anyone even trying to mount, to be willing to line himself up to the block and stand comfortably until told otherwise. Time and consistency.

Unless it is a pain issue or very very deeply ingrained. Luckily, I don’t think my guy suffered a tragedy of sorts, he was just unsure.
​​​​​​​

[NSC_Los_Angeles]

I went through this three years ago with a recently gelded, very hot spooky guy. I was at the mounting block with him when a horse burst through the 10 foot hedge dragging a lunge line behind him, my poor horse went into an absolute panic and started carrying that panic into every encounter with a mounting block. I wound up having to mount from the fence for awhile to ride, and spent a ton of time with a pocket full of cookies, walking back and forth past various mounting blocks, praising when calm, calmly walking away when anxious, giving cookies to reinforce the target behavior. I think this took about four or five weeks if I remember correctly, but eventually he became quite safe at the block. I still give him a cookie and a pat after I have mounted occasionally.

Good luck to you, and don’t beat yourself up <3

[candyappy]

@meupatdoes

Just curious, how would your training response be different depending on the age of the horse?

If the horse is say 2-4 years old I would suspect that he was rushed in his early training and didn’t have a solid foundation. You add to that a new owner, who does everything different than he is used to and the holes in his training foundation show up in some way.

If he is a solid broke older horse who has miles on him, I would suspect an ill fitting saddle, mounting error or pain first.
If all that is ruled out , then the training to fix it would be the same. Go back to the beginning.

How mounting is taught depends on the individual. I personally do everything alone so my youngsters are not held, or facing into a fence even for the first mounting. I can take days working up to just getting on, depending on the individual.

The only difference was 1 horse who was very " wild" so to speak , with a high flight zone, who an older couple had me start.
I opted to do his first mounting lessons in a foaling stall and it worked well. I had one of my kids around to watch for that one. He ended up being a solid citizen.

[Palm_Beach]

@TheHotSensitiveType

@mvp Thank you for the thoughtful post, very insightful. I really enjoyed it, and it gave me a lot to think about.

[B]Would you be able to describe some of the exercises you have done with your mare to work towards “changing the habit of emotion and thought?”

Here are the abridged mounting exercises I have done, both sides, without swinging leg over and head flexed back to me (mounting block and ground mounting).[/B] I learned how to mount from the right on this horse :). He is calmer mounting from the right if that helps with any suggestions you may have. He was doing all of these really well before I started actually putting my leg over his back.

• step up into stirrup, stand on side until he is relaxed and step down
• step up into stirrup, stand on side and rub other leg on side, flanks, haunches, when relaxed step down
• step up into stirrup, stand in the one stirrup and ask him to move off, bring back to halt, step down when relaxed

I’d go all the way back to square one with this horse. Without having seen your horse, you are starting, with luck, at the 3 week mark. He is not desensitized to sound and movement, especially up high and behind him. That is why he lose it when you get on. You always start at the beginning, and you are not starting at the beginning. You are starting with your goal, which is mounting. Mounting should not elicit any response at all from the horse - it is a meaningless movement and sensation. It should not be a cue to do anything. Your horse is not ready for mounting unless he can handle the following exercises or their equivalent:
-sacking out all over with a plastic bag or flag touching him everywhere and he stands still
-loudly smacking a lunge or buggy whip on the ground very close to him on both sides and swinging it over his head
-slapping the stirrup leathers against his sides loudly and firmly
-firmly smacking the seat of your saddle with the flag
-move around him and wiggle the saddle firmly on either side
-disengage hindquarters and bend to a stop

[CanteringCarrot]

To reference the post above, I have used an exercise ball (not totally full of air so it isn’t super bouncy but has some flop) and thrown it over the horse. Rubbed it on the horse. Placed it on his back and let it roll off. Held it on his back or side and asked him to walk off, bounced it next to him, held it up high, and eventually he just stood. He kept his eye on the ball, but became more comfortable with an unbalanced item on him and it sliding around or rolling off his sides. You must be careful, mindful, and aware. Do not push too hard.

I may get flak for recommending that, because depending on the horse you need to stay out of the way should he have a big reaction, and be mindful of where everything is at.

A precursor to this was flinging a lead rope over his back, neck, letting it hit his off side, rump, etc. Just getting used to sensations. So if a rider bumped him somewhere in the mounting process or became unbalanced, he could handle it, and is also used to things being over his back, or moving from one side to another.

[Crown_Royal]

I haven’t read through all the responses but of course before fixing the bolting during mounting with training, you need to make sure: saddle fits properly, back isn’t in pain, and you are sitting lightly on back when sitting down vs. plopping.

I have a mare that bolted every single time when you went to mount her no matter which saddle (or no saddle) you had on her. And when she was bolting off, of course the reins w/ bit weren’t going to stop her (and why should the rider be trying to “hold back” the horse with the mouth anyway), and a person standing there with a bucket of feed and a rope on her kind of helped to reel her back in but she was still trying to bolt and it was not helpful to fix the problem long-term or for when I was riding alone (which is 95% of the time).

So for her, I went back to some more basic ground work. Put rope halter w/ lead on her, taught her to flex her head to touch her side to both the left and the right (without moving around, took a little practice to learn I didn’t want her to walk, but to just bring her head in and flex her neck while standing still). Lots of praise for learning that. Then once she knew that, put rope halter on w/ lead UNDER regular working bridle, and put on saddle with stirrups at a length comfortable for you to mount from the ground. She was not very broke (or had been broken very poorly) so I had done the whole nine yard of slapping around and yanking on the stirrups so she was fine with all of that. I used a western saddle. So next I asked her to flex her head in towards me, and kept a taut line on the leadrope of the halter (keeping her head in) while I put a foot in the stirrup. Of course she moved but with her head brought in towards me and flexed, she was unable to go forward- the only place she could go was in a tight circle with me in the center. I kept my foot in the stirrup, kept the rope taut, and that tiny circle got old for her very quickly. Key is not allowing them to bully their head and neck straight again because that’s when they can run and you are no longer in a safe position. She’s not really a bully so was not too difficult to keep her head in and soft. I practiced foot in and out a couple times until she just stood still from the get go before moving on to standing up in the stirrup, which made her move again. But since head was flexed in, no problem. Couldn’t go anywhere other than tight circle around me and that’s not scary. Eventually I could lean over saddle, then put foot over, then sit down, continuing to keep head in, and practice until she didn’t move at all in any of these steps. I did it on both sides on her. After I felt she was very comfortable with all of this, more relaxed, I eventually let her have her head forward and she still didn’t bolt. Then we rode off at a walk and had an actual little ride (as much as she actually rides lol- yours probably knows more!). I have not had any issues with her bolting since, BUT we did several sessions of this slow practice with her still circling around me before standing still before she “got it” and stopped moving and then we would stop on that- that would be our schooling for the day. Not more work. And eventually once she stopped moving from the start, I still kept her head flexed in while mounting for safety. But she has never felt nervous while mounting or like she’s going to bolt since we did all of that.

[jazz8899]

I actually was riding a horse for a friend a couple of months ago that did this to me. A 3 yo TWH fresh from the trainer. I know nothing about gaited horses of any type mind you. He was fine once I got on, really sensitive and inexperienced but nothing bad ever. He just got really nervous when I was mounting everytime and eventually took off attempting his version of bronco. The trainer said to stack him out? I don’t know if that is what it called, but we did and it just sent a little switch in his head that went this is okay. I think he just didn’t know what I was doing when I was mounting and it scared him. I still get nervous myself mounting him, but haven’t had a problem since.

[Palm_Beach]

Anyone brave enough to click on that link? Is it that youtube virus link?