S, I was not taught by him. He was teaching people of different levels and no,he did not teach that you align your shoulders with the horse’s shoulders.
In a bend, the outside of the horse’s body is longer than the inside of the horse’s body. The outside snaffle ring is in advance of the inside snaffle ring and the hands have to match that position in order to maintain continuity in the contact. We can see this in the photograph EqTrainer posted, http://praha.planetsg.com/Forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=11364&d=1151033167 . In this photograph, the outside snaffle ring is in advance of the inside snaffle ring, her outside hand appears slightly in advance of her inside hand and her outside arm appears soft while, in this case, her inside arm appears to be actively working backward.
The bend in the horse can be made by actively shortening the inside of the horse’s body or encouraging the reach of the outside of the horse’s body (but not giving it so much freedom that the horse gets discombobulated). If the rider lets the outside rein more than sufficient to just see the inside nostril rim (or eye lashes) or so much that the contact changes then the rider is doing too much and the shoulder will ‘pop out’.
If the outside of the horse is already scrunched and the rider bends the horse to the inside without allowing the outside of the horse to stretch forward sufficiently then the only way for the horse to bend would be to make the inside scrunch more than the outside is scrunched.
When I do turn my belly button slightly to point to the horse’s outside ear this is what happens to my seat:
-My inside seatbone comes slightly forward and the outside slightly back which creates exactly what you described here:
The position of the rider determines the position of the horse. Schumacher describes the rider’s bending aids as the “twisted seat.” Your inner seat and leg are relatively forward, and your outer seat and leg are a bit back. Your hips are parallel to your horse’s hips and your shoulders are parallel to his shoulders. The quiet strength of your position controls your horse’s bend."
Schumacher I think talks about “twisting” because that’s almost what it feels like - you put your pelvis in a different position than your shoulders and you actually do twist at the wait to achieve the correct alignment. IOW word the rider needs to mirror in his body the correct bend in the horse on a circle with his shoulders and hips.
The slight turn at the waist also allows the reins to adjust for the turn WITHOUT altering the rein length. The reins need to allow for the horse’s bent or it won’t happen. By turning the shoulders squarely slightly to the inside from the waist the outside hand will come slightly forward allowing for the strtch of the horse’s neck towards the bend.
Yeah, I would suspect something similar - outside shoulder back as a general concept makes no sense when you look at it from a logical and biodynamic point of view.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree Tonja. This would not be the way I woud train a dressage horse. My hands are equal in their positioning and if I give a rein, it is the inside rein. It is the horses rib cage via the inside leg that is bent and elongates the outside of the horse…horse bends this way rather than by allowing room in the outside rein.
I think you both may be talking about the same thing. Your hands will still remain in the same position, but when you squarely turn your shoulders at the waist your outside hand will be slightly more forward than your inside one, even though you have not moved your hands . The change comes from your upper body, not the hands.
sabryant, I don’t think we disagree on this point as much as you think. We both agree that the horse’s ribcage is bending, causing the outside of the horse’s body to elongate. Room is made to allow for this bend when the rider’s shoulders follow the horse’s shoulders in the bend, while making sure contact is maintained.
sabryant, I don’t think we disagree on this point as much as you think. We both agree that the horse’s ribcage is bending, causing the outside of the horse’s body to elongate. Room is made to allow for this bend when the rider’s shoulders follow the horse’s shoulders in the bend, while making sure contact is maintained.
Hello, paging Tonja and sabryant, paging Tonja & sabryant…my comment seems to have been overlooked 
Thank you, BornToRide! :yes:
In true bend and especially in collection when the horse is on the outside rein, the inside bend is within the length of the outside rein. The inside “scrunch” is indeed more than the outside. The bend is within the outside rein!
I also think that as usual, there’s too much emphasis on the reins - true bend comes from the seat, not the reins.
sure btr, tell us how you teach your green and just backed horses to bend without ever using your reins.
giving the outside rein is something to do in very limited situations and very, very much knowing the problems it creates. it is, otherwise, the very best way to get the horse crooked and the shoulder incorrectly aligned in the circle, and it is not something i’d encourage most people to do as they use their outside rein far too little and their inside rein far too much anyway.
in general, i feel sabryant is more practical and less possible to confuse students and more likely to keep them on the right track. the other methods sound good, but lead to a lot of bad riding.
slc
I agree slc, that the word “giving” was not a good choice to use because it created the wrong image in the minds of a few people and that image is not what I had intended.
giving
I was the one who used that word first in this context:
“And you want to ride your horse from your inside leg to your outside rein and maintain an elastic contact. Not pull, not hold. Giving.”
Keeping it to elastic would probably have been more helpful but I was trying to really emphasize the difference between pulling or holding and having a hand that is generous.
What would be more appropriate besides elastic?
While I am very proud of my english, it is still a second language.
giving
Thanks for your willingness to take the fall, Karoline, but I beat you to it in post #5! :winkgrin: Some mistakenly took “giving sufficiently” to allow the bend to mean “completely giving away” and then, for some reason, got stuck on the word “giving” even after numerous clarifications. :rolleyes: Most others seemed to have figured out the intent of what I had written but I think in the future I could still be more clear.
BTW, your English is just fine! :yes:
No worries
And by the way, I bought yesterday the “Basic Training of the Young Horse” by Reiner Klimke for a friend of mine who is a first time horse mom -baby connemara- and if you have it please check page 70 the section entitled “riding curved lines” and “turns and riding through corners”.
Besides everything else he writes about how to ride a circle and create bent, which is pretty much what you said Tonja , he says: " …the outside shoulder (of the rider) is taken forward a little in order to stay parallel with the horse’s shoulders. The rider should be in a similar position to that when riding a bicycle, using the same actions and distribution of his body."
Now isn’t that what I said all along too!!! This is a great book btw, one of my other Dressage bibles…:winkgrin:
Yes your post was very good.
And, I might keep this copy and buy her another one. I have another Klimke book autographed by him around the time he passed away. But this one has much more data I can relate to.
What is the title of the other one?
