Horse Feed

[JB]

@cutter99

And you throw out plenty of nutritional advice here. What is your degree in? Attended a special nutrition school? Been trained by a feed company? Have a Masters? What makes you an expert, especially one in a position to criticize businesses of which you have no direct knowledge?

Again - where did I criticize? Nowhere. I pointed out that it’s important to know where the information is coming from. I’m not looking to get equine nutrition advice from someone who took a few obligatory courses in ruminant nutrition but concentrated in the Production and Business side of things, and has never owned a horse, regardless of their Animal Science degree, just like I would not go to a General Practitioner for my dietary advice. I don’t look to my vet, or most vets for that matter, for nutrition advice, because while their degree is far more advanced knowledge than I have, it is not in the area of nutrition, no matter how much they know about cellular activity or diseases or medications and other drugs.

Where does my knowledge come from? From actual nutritionists - real nutritionists like Dr. Clair Thunes and not just someone who took someone’s weekend course and calls themselves a nutritionist. From articles written at UC-Davis. From the people who are studying this stuff for a living. The National Research Council Nutrient Requirements for Horses is a gold mine of information. The Horse site has tons of articles which usually link to the actual research behind what they are putting into laymen’s terms. I look at those studies. Do you honestly think I make this stuff up? Spit it out because “that’s what Grandpa did”?

Sometimes the greatest ability in selling feed, and many other situations in life, is being able to say “I don’t know, but I know where I can find out”, and doing so. I know PhDs in Equine Nutrition who do this.

I do it all the time. I have told people I don’t know the answer to their question. There are questions asked that I don’t even attempt to answer because I don’t know.

I have made suggestions for searches to help them go find the information for themselves. When asked to back up what I have commented on, I can usually point to the research behind it all if that’s the detail they want. And I stand corrected when I am wrong. I cannot tell you the biology about most of this stuff works, and I don’t make it up when I don’t know. Don’t look to me to finesse feeding plans for the IR, Cushing’s, leaky gut and PSSM horse - not touching that one. Don’t ask me to create a custom-blended feed for you to hand your feed mill.

[Scribbler]

@cutter99

Again, more wrong assumptions. I covered a sales territory for one of the top ten animal nutrition companies in the world that was basically the entire northeast US from the Mid-Atlantic region to the Canadian border. I called on over 150 feeds stores in that region. One co-op I worked with had six salespeople out on the road. Everyone had a degree in Animal Science, and were well versed in equine nutrition. They had to be after the dairy industry was driven out by development in that state. Horses were at least holding steady while dairy/ beef numbers declined.

Many stores do offer equine specialists, who actually go out and make calls. Most people who work with either beef or dairy want no part in working with horses, as ruminant nutrition is much different than equine and they see horses as hay burners and horse owners as a PIA.

Animal Science does not just encompass the study of one species. It can cover more than one species as electives are part of the degree program. Most feed companies strive to hire Animal Science grads, although it is usually not a requirement. Believe it or not, most of these people are there to do a job and they want to do it well.
.

Well, we clearly have a much smaller market where I am in Canada.

We have two local mills making their own product lines, and not much if any national or American brands available.

The one coop mill has hay testing and a nutritionist on contract to talk to customers. The feed stores are all basically family operations. I dont think any of the feed stores have traveling salesmen. They just sell within a 60 mile driving radius.

The one coop makes modern formula low starch feeds. The other mill makes more old school formulations and even their maintenance extruded is 44% NSC I think (I checked because I was using it for clicker treats).

The feed stores all I think started out as hay dealers and grew from there.

[Palm_Beach]

@cutter99

And I am still waiting to hear all of JB’s credentials. I have asked this question before and it has never been answered.

JB has no credentials and gets his or her information from the internet. Does JB even have a science related undergrad degree?

Somehow, JB’s home study course is superior to any formal education obtained at an accredited college or university in any science related field, even if that person with the lowly Animal Science or other related degree is a lifelong horseperson who also have a deep, abiding interest in equine nutrition and has pursued his or her own internet-based home study course.

FWIW, Triple Crown will pay for employees to become certified by ARPAS, which is the recognized certification authority for equine nutrition. I believe anyone is eligible to pay for courses, testing, etc. and get the designation.

[cutter99]

@JB

Again - where did I criticize? Nowhere. I pointed out that it’s important to know where the information is coming from. I’m not looking to get equine nutrition advice from someone who took a few obligatory courses in ruminant nutrition but concentrated in the Production and Business side of things, and has never owned a horse, regardless of their Animal Science degree, just like I would not go to a General Practitioner for my dietary advice. I don’t look to my vet, or most vets for that matter, for nutrition advice, because while their degree is far more advanced knowledge than I have, it is not in the area of nutrition, no matter how much they know about cellular activity or diseases or medications and other drugs.

Where does my knowledge come from? From actual nutritionists - real nutritionists like Dr. Clair Thunes and not just someone who took someone’s weekend course and calls themselves a nutritionist. From articles written at UC-Davis. From the people who are studying this stuff for a living. The National Research Council Nutrient Requirements for Horses is a gold mine of information. The Horse site has tons of articles which usually link to the actual research behind what they are putting into laymen’s terms. I look at those studies. Do you honestly think I make this stuff up? Spit it out because “that’s what Grandpa did”?

I do it all the time. I have told people I don’t know the answer to their question. There are questions asked that I don’t even attempt to answer because I don’t know.

I have made suggestions for searches to help them go find the information for themselves. When asked to back up what I have commented on, I can usually point to the research behind it all if that’s the detail they want. And I stand corrected when I am wrong. I cannot tell you the biology about most of this stuff works, and I don’t make it up when I don’t know. Don’t look to me to finesse feeding plans for the IR, Cushing’s, leaky gut and PSSM horse - not touching that one. Don’t ask me to create a custom-blended feed for you to hand your feed mill.

So you don’t have a degree in Equine Nutrition? You read articles, associate with PhDs? You own a copy of the NRC for a Horses? An Internet connection so you can get articles online? And this makes you more of an expert than people with an Animal Science degree? And yet you offer all kinds of nutritional advice here?

What makes your advice so much so much more valuable than an equine specialist employed by a feed store?

Pot meet kettle.

[JB]

:rolleyes:

This whole thing started with the OP saying “I’ll call and talk to the local feed stores and see who seems helpful.”

Helpful doesn’t equate to knowledgeable. That is my only point. Some of the most helpful feed store people have recommended All Stock as a good option for a fat horse.

Then the implication was that anyone with an Animal Science degree knows exactly how to help you. Including, apparently, someone who specialized in Poultry and the Business side of things. Got it.

You are absolutely, 100% free to question my suggestions and advice. I hope you do the same with the dozens and dozens of others who offer the same. In the meantime, be sure to continue the suggestions and advice you both offer freely while at the same time telling everyone that nobody on the internet should be taking the advice of random internet strangers.

What makes your advice so much so much more valuable than an equine specialist employed by a feed store?

Please show me where I said that.

Have a great rest of your weekend.

[cutter99]

@Palm Beach

JB has no credentials and gets his or her information from the internet. Does JB even have a science related undergrad degree?

Somehow, JB’s home study course is superior to any formal education obtained at an accredited college or university in any science related field, even if that person with the lowly Animal Science or other related degree is a lifelong horseperson who also have a deep, abiding interest in equine nutrition and has pursued his or her own internet-based home study course.

FWIW, Triple Crown will pay for employees to become certified by ARPAS, which is the recognized certification authority for equine nutrition. I believe anyone is eligible to pay for courses, testing, etc. and get the designation.

There are two different certifications for ARPAS, and anyone can take the course and test for certification. One certification can be obtained if you have a Animal Science degree, and the other you can obtain without any degree or a non-Animal Science degree. It is not expensive to do, and does not just pertain to nutrition.

Most feed companies will pay for their employees to get ARPAS certification if the employee is so inclined.

[Simkie]

Wow. I’d really like to live where there are brilliant PhD carrying nutritionists manning the counter of every feed store, rather than nice but fairly ignorant high schoolers. I’ve somehow missed where ever than is in my many moves across the country.

All this vitriol toward JB is bizarre, considering she’s helped countless people here with their nutrition and deworming questions (in particular) and a multitude of other issues (in general) and is always so reasonable and NICE.

[Palm_Beach]

I don’t take advice from anonymous internet posters without verifying it with a credible source, and neither should anyone else. That is how the anti-vax movement reached the point that there are measles outbreaks and children are dead. All those kids were perfectly fine, until they got measles. I’m sure those parents were trying to help people, and were reasonable and NICE. Then children died.

So continue to ask questions and seek advice, but some of the people providing the advice, even if they are reasonable and NICE are not professionals or experts, and have cobbled together their knowledge from the internet.

This goes for many subjects, not just nutrition.

And it’s not vitriol toward JB, whoever he or she is, but calling out JB’s attitude that his or her home based study is superior to what someone else learned at an accredited college or university. JB is giving JB credit for pursing a home based course of study, but does not seem to think anyone else is capable of doing the same, especially if they majored in Animal Science and pursued poultry or business. Maybe poultry or business was pursued because there was a better career path than equine nutrition, and that student wanted to make sure he or she could earn a living and own a horse or two and not be one of the posters lamenting about the struggle to make ends meet when you are into horses.

[JB]

@Palm Beach

I don’t take advice from anonymous internet posters without verifying it with a credible source, and neither should anyone else.

So why are you here, recommending TC Lite to a variety of horses, including those who are fat on 1lb of a ration balancer?

So continue to ask questions and seek advice, but some of the people providing the advice, even if they are reasonable and NICE are not professionals or experts, and have cobbled together their knowledge from the internet.

Since I have told you where my information comes from (which are the people actually studying this stuff), where does your advice come from?

And it’s not vitriol toward JB, whoever he or she is, but calling out JB’s attitude that his or her home based study is superior to what someone else learned at an accredited college or university.

I’ve asked several times now for you and cutter to point out where I have discredited anyone. Why haven’t you answered?

Maybe poultry or business was pursued because there was a better career path than equine nutrition, and that student wanted to make sure he or she could earn a living and own a horse or two and not be one of the posters lamenting about the struggle to make ends meet when you are into horses.

So if that student didn’t study horses or horse nutrition in their Animal Science degree, what makes them qualified, in your opinion, to be giving advice on equine nutrition to the general customer whose horse they know nothing about? Is it their study of cellular biology that makes them qualified? Microbiology? Chemistry?

[WBmare]

Where I live the people at the both feed stores in my area don’t know the first thing about equine nutrition. The employees are very nice, and show you where it is or help you load the feed bags, but that is it. Same with the feed store in the county I used to live in. Very nice helpful people, but didn’t know anything about equine nutrition. Those of you with well educated people in equine nutrition at your feed store must be very lucky.

I also don’t get the gang up on JB. JB is always helpful and gives sound advice. I guess some people just like looking for trouble. :rolleyes:

[cutter99]

The pile on has been caused by a person discrediting others when her qualifications for making a recommendation are no more than what she has criticized. And yet you are willing to accept her advice without asking for her credentials, of which she has none! She can read an article online and interpret it as well as you can.

You can find knowledgeable people in feed stores. I know that for a fact. I have never said any store has PhD behind the counter. Please quote me and show me where I said that. But there are plenty of people who worked hard to get degrees that are pertinent to the feed industry. Give them the credit they deserve!

You won’t take recommendations from the people in your local feed store, yet will from an anonymous person on the Internet, who offers no more qualifications than the person in the feed store? No irony in that at all!

[Simkie]

Please show where JB discredited ANYONE. :rolleyes:

[cutter99]

@JB

Keep in mind that rarely does anyone at any feed store know the first thing about feeding any animal. They know what sells best, they know what they use and like (if bought from there), but that’s not helpful. Being helpful isn’t the same as being knowledgeable.

There you go Simkie.

[Obsidian_Fire]

Count me as another who’d like to know where all these knowledgeable people are behind the counter. 99% of the feed stores in any driving distance of me don’t know a single thing about feeding a horse except give it hay and ‘here’s the products we carry’.
Ask about cattle or chickens or pigs or sheep… no problem.

[Simkie]

@cutter99

There you go Simkie.

…

That’s not discrediting ANYONE.

Try again?

Do you work in a feed store or something? This reads as some sort of personal vendetta. You think JB is talking about YOU, specifically?

[Palm_Beach]

Pretty confident that a product recommendation does not constitute giving advice on nutrition, and I readily admit that I leave the nutritional lifting to the well educated and credentialed folk at Triple Crown who are happy to answer chats, emails and phone calls. And anyone who fancies themselves nutrition experts really blows their cover if they don’t understand the foundation that biology, chemistry, and more advanced related sciences give them to truly understand how we and in a different way, our horses, digest and utilize nutrients. The same basic concepts apply whether you are talking about a horse, human or chicken, with species specific differences. But surely if you are an expert that should not have to be explained.

[Simkie]

@Palm Beach

Pretty confident that a product recommendation does not constitute giving advice on nutrition

That’s exactly what it constitutes. You’re interpreting the needs and requirements of the horse as you know them and making a recommendation on how to address them. What on earth do you think you’re doing when you make a recommendation??

[Libby2563]

I have personally benefited from JB’s advice (no I don’t follow internet advice blindly but it can be an excellent place to start) and have found her to be among the most knowledgeable, reasonable, and generous posters on here. I am really perplexed by the vitriol. I don’t think any of JB’s posts on this thread have come close to carrying the disdain and arrogance being attributed to them. I’m glad to see she is handling the bizarre reactions with as much grace as I’d expect!

Her point, which was really just that not all feed store employees are a good source of info about equine nutrition, is perfectly valid in my experience. Some may be. But definitely not all or maybe even not most. I think that’s pretty much all she was saying.

[Scribbler]

Well, I’m glad to hear our feed store employees are close to the norm.

They are very nice, they lift bags into your truck, and I am not sure any of them know what the NSC of a feed is, or what NSC is. I will try asking next time I am in one.

[Palm_Beach]

@Simkie

You’re interpreting the needs and requirements of the horse

You are soooo wrong. When someone asks what ration balancer people like and I reply Triple Crown, I know nothing at all about their horse, and therefore am NOT interpreting the needs and requirements of the horse. LOL that would make me and podiatrist if I someone wants to know about a brand of running shoe!!! Silly.