Horse hangs shoulder/jumps like deer

[Rnichols]

My old gelding would occasionally do this same exact thing! I used to be a member of my virtual eventing coach, and I asked Lesley for some advice about it. Apparently the article is a “current freebie”, so if you’d like to take a look at what advice she gave me you can read it here:

http://www.myvirtualeventingcoach.com/articles/eventing_photo_55

In my case a lot of what led my horse to jump like that was the quality of his canter approaching the fence. The better canter I got, the better his form over fences got.

Also I hope this isn’t considered advertising - just want to share the information I received and hopefully it can help somebody else.

[wanderlust]

[QUOTE=Heinz 57;8627289]
I agree with wanderlust, and would add that in my particular program, I would be doing lots and lots of steep crossrails used in grids with placing poles to teach a more efficient jump from a proper distance. No more buried deep distances, you want to teach her to snap those knees up instead of just hoisting her whole body an extra foot in the air. I might also experiment with guide rails (upside down V) set fairly narrow on the fences for verticals and oxers.

I would also be introducing cavaletti work into our daily routine, both trot and canter, to encourage those knees to come up. But primarily, lots and lots of gridwork with controlled distances.

[/QUOTE] Agree 100% with the training advice.

[sophie]

OP your mare looks just like mine used to jump.
I bought her at the track as a 4 yo . She was honest and brave and over jumped everything while hanging her front legs. To the point that people were gasping during our stadium rounds! But I always felt safe on her, she is so catty and can take us out of any trouble spot ( at least over N or T level fences).

She now jumps in great form. She has apparently learned to lift her forearm over jumps. When in doubt, she still over jumps a bit but her form is good now.

I think what helped her the most was flat work and dressage, trotting all of our fences for a long while, and grid work (X to ground pole to vertical to pole to oxer to pole to vertical etc.)

[fermecinqsens]

Thanks for the ideas so far.
i agree it doesn’t seem like short spots would help her since she just gets more deer-like trying to get out of her way.

she does jump like a pogo stick. It does seem like she needs to figure out how to leap across then fence rather than just up. She almost lands four-footed.

she is very green jumping. Before this xc clinic I had basically just been doing x poles.
I have been working mainly on dressage. Her canter work has been significantly improved in the past couple months and is getting more adjustable.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=fordtraktor;8626914]
sure, but you either fix it in the ring or you don’t. Don’t take them XC over anything decent sized when they jump like that.

Plus, I don’t care to ride horses XC where if I make a tiny mistake it is going to cause them to screw up in a way that is going to be dangerous. a horse with “bad instincts” is not my choice to jump big solid things. I like horses with an instinct to be snappy in front when possible, not necessarily like a hunter but at least parallel.[/QUOTE]

fordtraktor, I agree with you. Totally. I hate to be pessimistic as the OP really does like this horse but I would be very careful. I have had horses that were sloppy and a bit stupid when green, but typically the form you see early on carries on into the future.

I much prefer a horse that takes rails with his feet and not with his knees.

[riopony]

Following because my horse jumps similar. I have found that if I get too “busy” he jumps like crap! I did a clinic recently and he pretty much told me to just stop doing what I was doing and our canter and then our jumps got way better!

[judybigredpony]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8626560]
Agree. If she were mine, I would run her through a jump chute to see how she does with bigger fences, and whether she starts to bring her knees up. It may be that she would benefit from this on a regular basis. You definitely do not want her to jump over her knees once the jumps get bigger.[/QUOTE]

Completely agree…

Unlike a lot of people on here I am not a super jump rider…But I am very confident on my eye and ability to get the most out of a horse in a jump chute…Find make or borrow one…it will help…and does take some time. Feel free to PM if you have specific question won t clog the board up.

[bornfreenowexpensive]

[QUOTE=Winding Down;8627793]
fordtraktor, I agree with you. Totally. I hate to be pessimistic as the OP really does like this horse but I would be very careful. I have had horses that were sloppy and a bit stupid when green, but typically the form you see early on carries on into the future.

I much prefer a horse that takes rails with his feet and not with his knees.[/QUOTE]

i guess I disagree. I’ve seen many many many that jump as described and pictured by the OP that substantially improved. The jumping like a deer and how the OP described how this mare was run through a chute over a big fence describes a horse rushed to jump too big and too fast before she has been able to sort out her form. It describes tension and a green horse being honest but not knowing really what to do.

While no one loves the lack of form and deer jumps…those that jump in perfect form over little fences also doesn’t mean they will have a great jump with scope either. And certainly great form without a rider doesn’t always translate to good form with a rider.

Bottom line. Too soon to tell with this mare. But I do agree that some time free jumping CAN really help but not cranking up a big jump. She needs to relax. She needs to be given time to learn to good form, jumping jumps that help her develop that form.

[Winding_Down]

[QUOTE=judybigredpony;8627896]
Completely agree…

Unlike a lot of people on here I am not a super jump rider…But I am very confident on my eye and ability to get the most out of a horse in a jump chute…Find make or borrow one…it will help…and does take some time. Feel free to PM if you have specific question won t clog the board up.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and I see no reason to crank the jumps up in the chute. You can definitely assess the horse’s natural inclination to use his body over a fence at 3’ or so.

JBRP, would love to see how you build your jump chute discussed here. I want to build one soon for my newbie OTTB - so I can get him jumping on his own and gaining confidence.

[fordtraktor]

I agree with BFNE that based on the further disclosures this sounds very fixable. Way too early to write the horse off because most horses will jump like this is you approach with an up and downing pong gait which in reality has no ability to carry them across the fence and then they do their best to get over. The horse is trying, bless her.

but that is exactly what I would expect. See what you have after a few months in the ring. Give her time.

A good bit of this fix requires a different ride from you or if in the chute encouragement to go forward. It is not wrong to use a stick behind your leg at takeoff on a horse that hangs. Not to beat it, mind you…leg on, a light tap and cluck to reinforce the forward aid and get the idea across. For many horses that will cure this entirely and get then jumping across. Lots of praise when then leap forward which many do in response to a tap on takeoff. Over a crossrail. Then GOOD GIRL!!! And lots of praise and pets. She will realize soon the effort felt better to her too. One of those, then just keep your leg on and cluck to her over the X. Same praise if she lands going forward. Etc.

When we say get her deep we mean jump nicely from the base, where all jumpers try to jump. Not a chip or a tight spot. you do not want to be taking long spots on horses with poor form, it encourages it and fliers are downright dangerous on a horse that hangs its Knees. That is classic horsemanship.

Many people consider those rampy Hunter oxers to be the bane of good form because they encourage flat jumping and drapey legs. Just read George Morris’ column regularly, he will note it. I have heard it from multiple sources. When I worked for a barn that did hunters we NEVER schooled those at home, only square oxers. Shows make the horses complacent enough. We used the kinda of exercises I described above. Pole, small square oxer, pole on landing side. Gymnastics. Bounces. Consistent canter to the base. Save the gap for shows. Gap enough and it takes your horse’s confidence away because that is fundamentally asking the horse to leave a bit long. Some horses we never did it on for that reason, the sensitive ones. Some horses can gap forever and not care but they are rarely the brilliant jumpers.

I personally would be jumping this horse over little tiny stuff a lot, like a few jumps every ride but no huge jump schools. Just add it in and make it seem boring and normal. Keep the number of total weekly efforts low, but expose her to jumps often. And tons and tons of trot and canter poles. I use that strategy with hot horses a fair bit and find it helps them a lot, but I am very good at just jumping 3-4 fences and stopping. 40 minutes of dressage, 3 of jumping, cookies and walk around is a pretty average day around here. I keep trot or canter poles set up and use them at various points when doing flatwork, just go through the poles.

For now, I would frankly do most jumping from a trot to give her time to think while you still ride her forward. Also practice a lot of changes within gaits at the canter especially. If her canter is kind of bogged down and unbalanced, she might feel like her feet are stuck in lead. Have a couple of canters and jump from the middle once when you canter jumps.

[beowulf]

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;8627921]
i guess I disagree. I’ve seen many many many that jump as described and pictured by the OP that substantially improved. The jumping like a deer and how the OP described how this mare was run through a chute over a big fence describes a horse rushed to jump too big and too fast before she has been able to sort out her form. It describes tension and a green horse being honest but not knowing really what to do.

While no one loves the lack of form and deer jumps…those that jump in perfect form over little fences also doesn’t mean they will have a great jump with scope either. And certainly great form without a rider doesn’t always translate to good form with a rider.

Bottom line. Too soon to tell with this mare. But I do agree that some time free jumping CAN really help but not cranking up a big jump. She needs to relax. She needs to be given time to learn to good form, jumping jumps that help her develop that form.[/QUOTE]

:yes: exactly. And also exactly why I wouldn’t have written her off yet re: rotational fall as mentioned above… too green, too early to tell.

OP’s second post clarifying was exactly what I expected - super green horse… not in work long enough IMHO to know for certain… How long has she been in work? That will make a big difference. Is she actually fit enough to be jumping? If she’s only been in work with you for about six months she’s likely just building up muscle strength still…

I disagree with the posters who wouldn’t freejump this horse - I think you should, just so you can get her used to using her body over fences sans rider, as well as so you can see personally if the deer jump is a result of a poor quality canter, greenness, weakness, or if it is just naturally how she is inclined to jump.

Developing comfort using their body over fences is paramount… but so is maintaining yours. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a rushed or unbalanced canter and some leaning from the OP on these deer jump approaches. Fix the canter by adding adjustability on the flat - OP mentioned the mare can barely canter over a ground pole… well, that was the cue that greenness is the issue and this horse needs more miles on the flat first.

I like steep x-rails/fan fence grids for teaching a green horse to realize they’re catty – keep them small, 18 inches to 2’6" max, keep some of them wide (max 2ft) and play around in a chute with this mare for a bit. Or, if she is strong enough, start cantering cavalettis with her - I like putting 2-4 on a big circle and lunging them over it.

[equestriantrainer_10]

I didnt read through everyone’s replies so appologies if I am repeating people.
Two great exercises to help with not only distance but pace (and I know ground work is boring but this is helpful and quite fun too) is caveletti work and tempo grids.

Set up four cavelettis with a slight rise on one end. Make the rise opposites sides every other one. Trot through it. Add two more…keep adding more until you reach around 10-12 cavelettis. This will help your horse get a much better feel of his feet and distance plus its fun to ride through. Next set the cavelettis up to canter through them…adding them slowly as cantering them takes much more control for your horse. Allow your horse to figure it out so just ride them and stay out of the horse’s way as much as possible.

next is to canter tempos between two jumps. Set up a 5 stride jump at maybe 2 foot. Do this a few times then slow down to add a stride. Slow down even more to make it a 7 stride. Now speed up and do it in 4 strides. Remember you are in control of where your horse’s feet are. See the distance and set your horse up for the perfect spot. These exercises will help you see the distance better so your horse can jump better and prepare your horse for his career.

[ACMEeventing]

[QUOTE=equestriantrainer_101;8628412]

next is to canter tempos between two jumps. Set up a 5 stride jump at maybe 2 foot. Do this a few times then slow down to add a stride. Slow down even more to make it a 7 stride. Now speed up and do it in 4 strides. Remember you are in control of where your horse’s feet are. See the distance and set your horse up for the perfect spot. These exercises will help you see the distance better so your horse can jump better and prepare your horse for his career.[/QUOTE]

I disagree with this plan completely. It’s a good exercise for other issues, but the last thing (Okay, one of the last things) I’d want to do with a horse that hangs its knees is make a 4 stride out of a 5 stride.

[wanderlust]

@fordtraktor;8628384

When we say get her deep we mean jump nicely from the base, where all jumpers try to jump. Not a chip or a tight spot. you do not want to be taking long spots on horses with poor form, it encourages it and fliers are downright dangerous on a horse that hangs its Knees. That is classic horsemanship.

I don’t see where anyone including myself, advocated taking flyers. We said not to let the horse get too deep, and think of it as maybe being a touch gappy.

Many people consider those rampy Hunter oxers to be the bane of good form because they encourage flat jumping and drapey legs. Just read George Morris’ column regularly, he will note it. I have heard it from multiple sources. When I worked for a barn that did hunters we NEVER schooled those at home, only square oxers.
Going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Ramped oxers certainly do not make horses jump with drapey legs. That’s the first I have ever heard that said. Even per Perfect Peter Pletcher:

“Single Ramped Oxer: Our final exercise is a single oxer—but not just any oxer. The key is to “ramp” it, meaning the front rail is lower than the back one. The ramped shape will help refine the shape of your horse’s improving bascule because the oxer’s width and higher back rail will encourage him to pull up his back and knees as he reaches forward and down with his head and neck.”

From: http://practicalhorsemanmag.com/article/build-bascule-peter-pletcher-25497#sthash.tOSNgqQ3.dpuf

OP- in my experience, a ramped oxer is going to help your horse learn to jump across the jump instead of just straight up in the air. Yes, it may flatten the jump a touch, but that is the whole point of what you want to do with this mare. The square oxers tend to result in less tidy knees and a more elevated jump. And personally, I’d not put her through bounces until she figures out how to get her knees out of the way.

But hey, YMMV. Try different exercises, and see what works.

[Belmont]

I had a solid 3’6 - 3’9 jumper that jumped a lot like that. He was not pretty to look at. However, he never knocked a rail (unless I REALLY screwed up). The little stuff he was much worse over, however he was better at bigger, more airy oxers and roll tops. He wasn’t super tidy with his knees. He also go better with training, but he was never a gorgeous jumper. He always jumped a little higher than expected and we always went clean. However, the hang time did cost us a few jump offs.

I did find that selling him was awfully hard. I wound up giving him away to someone that needed a confidence booster, because people thought he “hung his knees”, even though he produced ribbons and clean rounds.

Try a lot of grid work. However, if this is the horses true style (like mine was), I would consider just doing the Jumpers on her or trying to sell for a better XC prospect.

[fordtraktor]

Here is Louise Serio on drapey front ends and schooling to the deep distance to oxers: http://www.equisearch.com/article/drapeyjumper_121405

The Pletcher article sort of proves my point, to my view. It talks about starting with basics, then developing to riding deep to the base to square oxers and using ramped oxers as a “finishing exercise” later. Like a hunter class, it can show off what you’ve been developing but OP’s horse is not anywhere near ready for “finishing exercises.” it needs the first half of that article which is exactly what I have been saying. I am glad you posted it. I think OP will find it very helpful. Especially about riding forward and straight to the simple exercises, getting to the base of the fences and letting the horse and jumps address the issue. And giving the horse a lot of time at each step before moving on to the next one.

And it isn’t that you should never use a ramped oxer at all, they certainly have their place. It’s fine for OP to jump them on this horse, especially little ones. It isn’t going to hurt anything once the horse is more confident, the key issue is to just get the horse moving forward across the fences whatever they are. GM uses the terminology “excessive ground lines” for the bad kind that encourage poor form. He’s not a fan which you can see if you google it.

and yes, she needs to save the bounces for when the horse is jumping well across crossrails and through simple gymnastics. They’ll help, but the horse needs some pretty basic skills here. That became a lot more clear how green the horse was as the post unfolded. I’d keep it on my list for sure, but after the horse is confident over poles, crossrails, one and two stride gymnastics…no point in doing bounces unless you can do those perfectly and calmly. Still, it’s a great, more advanced exercise for this issue.

[fordtraktor]

Wanderlust, I think we agree more than you think if you liked that Peter Pletcher article. The first half is almost exactly the advice I have been giving – ride forward to simple stuff, then deep to the base of square oxers.

And the ramped one is 1. A finishing tool, and 2. not at all what I mean when I say “those rampy Hunter oxers.” I don’t hate all ramped oxers though as a jumper rider I don’t set tons of them. What I and others dislike is the modern trend to build everything with a ramp and then a box and then a flower box line and then a brush line in front. A simple ramp becomes a five foot gentle spread that encourages flat, drapey jumping.

It doesn’t mean a simple ramped oxer with a basic ground line is bad. They are fine.

Here is a nice Louise Serio article on drapey front ends: http://www.equisearch.com/article/drapeyjumper_121405
OP’s horse isn’t drapey but the concepts are the same.

[ACMEeventing]

In addition to the tall X rails and other good suggestions here, V poles are excellent at encouraging the horse to lift/rotate the shoulder and snap the knees,

I was just remembering how much I used to use them and thought I’d come back and add that. Good luck! I think your photos show a lot of promise

[bornfreenowexpensive]

Given how green she is. I wouldn’t quite yet do too much. She is not ready for grids or bounces but you will want to do those relatively soon (start with exercise 1 in Jimmy’s book and work your way through them all).

For the moment, i personally would go back to trotting single simple fences. More solid looking (including simple logs xc) are better but keep it easy and not stressful. Let her develop a bit and relax. I would also have her back and saddle fit checked.

If she doesn’t improve in form, then I’d move on to some of the exercises and grids suggested on this thread.

[Pennywell_Bay]

Any chance you have conformation pictures? You can do exercises and instill confidence, but in the end you can only work with what you have/how the horse is built. If the horse has bad shoulder, humerous, cannon conformation you are going to be limited on what you can really expect from your horse tidy-wise. She can still be a safe reliable mount in most instances.

If she’s a potential re-sale, sellers will look at other horses with similar records that don’t hang their legs and 90 % will go with one that doesn’t, IMO.