Vet is relying on owners description of the events, as are we. Some owners have seen more then others and other owners might exaggerate or rely on their less experienced interpretation of just exactly what the horse is doing. Vet can’t really know what might be actual or dramatized without seeing it happen. One persons berserk explosion might be another persons freshness and high spirits with a dose of bad manners.
You need to work on getting some video of the actual episodes, even on a cell phone.
My two cents: something is happening which is triggering a flashback in your mare.
For example: she had some traumatic thing happen, like being bitten by a snake, or —: and at the same time, a noise occurred. Now she hears this noise - and associates this noise with the bite. This triggers the “flight” reaction.
It would be most helpful if you can induce the behavior, or be watching/listening for something that would give you a clue.
Since this happens at home AND away, it’s not something in her feeder.
My experience: my mare became nuts about the sound of the garbage truck in the neighborhood. Not the sight - the sound. She’d rush in and out of her pen if she heard it. This developed later in life. I finally thought I figured it out when I was near the vet clinic, and heard the garbage truck in the neighborhood. She’d had surgery there, on garbage pickup day, and I think she heard the sound when she was coming out of the anesthesia, and it frightened her.
This situation is clearly dangerous. Good luck to you!
I actually treated her a few months back for 6 weeks. One of the episodes was 4 weeks into the treatment. Didn’t scope- but did not see any change in behavior.
Good thought! I’ve had my camera ready to video the past few nights and will continue. Interestingly enough, tonight, she got anxious and was on high alert the instant I started walking her to the stall. She was prancing immediately upon entry and uneasy- head up, nostrils flaring. I made her stand still for a minute and calm down before I took her halter off, but immediately after I let her go- she was out of there! No crazy running- just ran out of the stall and into the paddock. She wouldn’t come back for her grain. I eventually took the pan outside to her and she calmly stood there and ate.
The horses have in/out access to both barns and paddocks 24/7. Now that I think about it, they used to utilize both areas 50/50, but one day months ago they all the sudden stopped going into the one (this same place I take her into each night to feed). I wonder if something happened in there to create fear?
I’ll have to keep a closer eye and ear on the surroundings/noises like you mentioned. Thanks!
Anything unusual about the stall? Could something alive (mice, rats, rabbits, skunks, etc) be bothering her in there? An animal, even if it’s not doing anything but going about it’s business, could be enough to freak her out. Any signs of digging along the walls/floors? Any soft spots under the stall mats? Burrowing could create tunnels which feel very odd/unsafe to walk on. Is there anything different about this stall compared to the other stalls?
Wow, that is interesting. Yes, something has happened there to create fear. And, that fear can now be triggered - which is what happened at the show.
My advice: stop using that stall/area. See what happens.
Something’s going on:
A snake
A shock: check your electrical system. You may have a short that is actually somehow shocking your horse.
Block off that stall. Think you might have a critter in there. Little noise, maybe got stepped on and it screamed or bit, one gets scared, then they all get scared- basic herd behavior. The fact the original noise or whatever happened with the critter happened in the confined area of the stall would have added to the panic of the horse that was involved and panic transferred to the rest of the herd. Now they all are afraid of that stall. Possibly the horse involved thrashed around trying to flee and banged into something on the way out creating a pain association as well.
Think we can assume that mare was the one trapped in the stall with the monster. That’s my theory anyway. Makes sense as these described episodes seem to occur mostly inside, like the barn aisle, not in the wide open spaces and the rest of the herd is also scared of that stall.
Its possible the mare is overreacting but getting scared and hurting herself in a confined area would create quite the lasting impression in a prey animal. Might now be claustrophobic if startled. If you’ve ever worked to retrain loading on a horse that’s been trapped in a trailer accident, you’ll get that…
Block off that stall. Even if you never figure out what caused it, the herd may always be suspicious.
Horses and ponies can be claustrophobic. I have a small pony who (even after 17 years) does not like being in a stall - even though the stall has no bars and the front of the stall is open above the kickwall. He was severely abused by former owners trying to force him into a trailer made for minis (and he was too large to fit). No telling where else they beat him and for what. That has stuck with him, even though he’s made huge progress in all other areas over the years. But the stall to him is still a scary place. Its one of the reasons my group of three went to live outside 24/7 (with run-in shelters) years ago.
Can you open up the stall some? Like where the door to the outside is - widen that up to nearly the stall width? I think I’d empty the stall to bare walls and floor - give it a good bath, very careful inspection (holes where rats or snakes or other critters might hide or live), the re-bed it. Also - how high up is the ceiling? If you’ve got a loft above that stall, I’d seriously consider removing it above her stall. Then I’d use a regular field gate as her stall “door” - so if she does ever have to be confined for illness or injury she won’t feel all closed in.
This won’t cost you much and if it is helpful, all the better.
hillary again’s electrical theory reminded me of something. Does the mare wear shoes? Be forewarned that if the grounding systems are slightly off, stray voltage can travel quite a ways from the fence itself.
We had a situation years ago where our unshod horses were routinely moving through a very large open gate area with no issues until the instant they were shod, at which point they were bolting through it like maniacs, bucking and farting and eventually refusing to go near it.
At first we thought wasp nest nearby, scary this or that, but in the end DH started experimenting with the ground rods and it fixed the problem. There was no sign of a issue - charger was good, fence tested, no sparking or snapping - very odd.
If she’s been zapped, even a tiny bit in a confined space she could carry that fear around with her. Just another of many possibilities.
Yes. or maybe you had a hard stop when she was in the trailer or she slipped loading or unloading or she banged her head on the roof or something then had a minor issue in the confines of the stall banging herself again so had become claustrophobic. She then communicated to the herd the stall was scary.
Does that stall have a low roof or narrow doorway??
Maybe the trailer cane first, maybe it was the stall but if both started recently and the behavior is mainly involving enclosed spaces? Might be the answer, she got scared in a tight space or spaces, maybe banged herself creating a pain association. That is a logical possibility.
I’m not sure this sounds neuro to me. The time at the show, she hadn’t been on her full turnout, it is busy, and there are people petting her. She is saying SHE. IS. DONE. She goes in the stall, blows off some steam and feels more calm.
The other times, she has finished eating and her friend isn’t done yet. That is frustrating. She wants more food too. So she goes out, blows off some steam, and feels more calm.
I would still test for Lyme and check to make sure there isn’t anything in her stall scaring her, but I would bet she actually is just this way. A lot of calm horses are. They don’t show anything outwards about being stressed or upset, and then when they reach their max they have to ‘explode’ to let it all out.
From your description, I doubt this is a “trigger” incident based on a past trauma. Horses get over them (so much better than people). I have heard so many stories of “what happened” to explain behavior that had nothing to do with a past event, that the horse hadn’t thought about once since it happened. Horses get past things that aren’t repeated so much better than people do. Their reactions to triggers can be desensitized, their reaction gets softer each time. And they become accustomed to environmental sounds and factors like rustles, squeeks, etc. So maybe it is, but personally I doubt it just based on the extreme and consistent nature of the incidents, as you describe them OP.
This sounds physiological to me. Maybe neuro and maybe something else, but in the body, not the memory.
I’m glad you are committed to getting video of some incidents. You’ll probably need more than one video; without hoping for any occurrences, I do hope that you get what the mare needs you to have in order to help her. I agree with the poster who said that it’s difficult to interpret verbal descriptions of complex situations. And of course, that’s just the interpretation of one set of eyes, when someone else might understand it differently.
My last horse, now deceased, had some unusual behaviors in his last few years. My biggest regret is that I did not video the behavior, because my verbal descriptions did little to help the situation. His anxiety became constant and increasing, and in the last couple of years affected his pasture behavior.
I strongly agree with the advice to skip the local vets and find a specialist in neuro. With luck they will rule things out. But if not, you’ll skip a lot of wasted time and money. Local vets are not likely to have the means of testing and the treatments for unusual conditions, precisely because they are unusual and it may not make sense to keep them on hand.
Here’s what to be careful to avoid, from my experience with my horse (whose behavior was not like your mare’s, so can’t help with ideas as to what it is).
Keep advice in context when it comes from well-meaning advisors and friends who see everything from their own perspective. With my horse, nutritionists were sure it was nutrition. The hormonal expert was sure it was a hormone imbalance. And so on. Not that sometimes these things are very helpful, but when a recommended supplement is making his coat shiny without changing the behavior, don’t feel locked in to that solution. No matter how insistent that expert or friend is being.
Vets. I could write a blog post full of frustration. For a situation like this, don’t go to any vet under the age of 40, written with heaps of apologies for all of the vets, and all of the people under 40, who don’t deserve that. But I’m sorry to say that I’ve repeatedly found younger vets who think that anything that is outside of their own normal textbook field of study is a big nothing. Probably that the owner dreamed it up. I’ve known them to refuse to consult with other vets, or credit greater experience of senior vets, and to not consider referrals because they want to do it themselves, even if it’s outside their own wheelhouse. That is, they don’t acknowledge that anyone could possibly know more than they do. Not all of them, but have run across this too much for me to be generally trusting any longer.
I’d be looking for an senior BTDT vet with broad and rich experience, on the path to a neuro specialist. Those are the vets who know what they don’t know. They have experienced things that aren’t in the textbooks (lots of stuff isn’t). Their experience helps them do a better job with things that won’t show up on an MRI or an x-ray. And they will refer. (Unless you have one that is stuck in one mindset and won’t, of course.)
Ask the vet questions, and ask directly about their experience. Those are fair conversations with any vet. If something doesn’t make sense to you, keep looking for more information and answers.
If you described it to the vet as you did to us, I can’t imagine a vet thinking this is “100% behavioral”. This sounds like vet bs to me, that I’ve run into when the vet doesn’t know, and doesn’t want to admit there are things he/she doesn’t know.
However I do think that the remark that “this isn’t a kid’s horse” is interesting. Is she speaking generally, or just the behavior oddities? If it’s general behavior (not the episodes), she may be on to something there and it indicates that you do need more help and more experienced eyes on this situation.
Good luck. I so hope you find the answer that will give you and your lovely mare a happy life together.
So…bloodwork and tests are back from the vet. Negative for Lyme, no imbalances in her blood chemistry. I have moved her to a different stall (which also has a higher ceiling, more windows, and more space). Removed everything out of her diet but pasture/hay, a ration balancer, and gut pellet. She has not had any crazy running episodes since, but she was stalled for 48 hours last week due to weather (first time stalled in months) and she was beyond frustrated- bucking every time I was out there, the occasional itching/biting at her sides. I really am leaning towards this being more behavioral. Vet did mention ulcers but also mentioned she has no reason to have ulcers unless she has pain. She advised me to trial Equioxx for 2 weeks and see if I notice a difference.
Unless I am mistaken equioxx will not stop ulcer pain. It will stop any back pain or something like that though.
With ulcers you really have two choices; scope or do a trial of UlcerGard/pop rocks to see if there is a behavior change.
As she isn’t displaying the behavior under saddle I would think probably not ulcers. But if she has any of the other symptoms like girthyness, dull coat, not keeping on weight, you might want to try either option.
Correct- Equioxx will not stop ulcer pain. It was more of a trial to see if she has pain anywhere else and is that affecting her behavior? She’s not girthy, coat not dull, she stays fat on air, and I treated for ulcers months ago with no change in bevavior.
In almost every ulcer case I have seen the major change was behavior under saddle, so with no other symptoms I would think it’s probably not ulcers (yay! That stuff is expensive)
You are telling me! However, my vet has had me use a new product the last few times ulcers were suspected, called Relyne GI. Its a gel that they get 2 squirts twice a day in their feed. The two I tried it on were OTTBs straight off the track, we obviously suspected ulcers not just to their recent past but because of certain issues they were exhibiting. Within 5 days…DIFFERENT HORSE. And it was only $198 versus $800…I know it doesn’t apply in this case but its helped two horses I know of, and he has had really good results with others. He’s actually starting to recommend it as much as the GastroGuard.
