Horse pulls down and dolphin-hops after jumps... HELP before I break my neck!

[foursocks]

Yeah, who knows how old the poster is? I have encountered people in real life who I thought were much younger when they were unknowns on the internet. As in: someone in her 60s who had the affect of a unrealistic, inexperienced teenager.

I have met a lot of people who have BSS (Black Stallion Syndrome) and while it is understandable in one’s youth, my eye rolling begins when the person is an adult. There is someone I know in her late 50s who thinks she has a “special bond” with every horse she takes care of (she is a barn worker), including my horse. My horse is NOT a snuggly, huggy, in your pocket kind of guy and when she leans in to kiss him the look on his face (oh, god, not this again) always makes me laugh.

[CindyCRNA]

OP, I have not read this entire thing but am going to as I own this exact horse. I mean the whole package. Except he’s a 17 hand, 11 year old Holsteiner. I love him like my child and he runs to great me. He too is opportunistic with an open stall door and although he doesn’t break away, he can be a kite to bring in but not because he’s an ass, he’s just so dang happy!

The long spot is the death of us. If he gets funky to a jump or a long spot, you will pay for it on the backside. Like your guy, his ears are not pinned. He’s not pissed.

I too gave up last year and we just flatted.Then a girl came to my barn and her mare bucked so much worse on the backside and she was still riding so I thought, screw it, we are going to get started again. We started at square 1 with an 18" cross rail CT (we are eventers) in March of this year . I found that half halting him to the base so we had no long spots greatly reduced misbehavior on the backside. We finished at Novice and he got reserve champion of the year. We also got champian at Novice for the CT series (novice is 2’11").

I managed to get hooked up with a great clinician, John Michael Durr, and he is taking him next week for 3+ months to Aiken for training. During a cross country clinic with him last month, we jump a type of jump that we had never jumped, one that had a ditch under the jump. He landed on the backside and went into a bucking fit and bucked me off. I got my self together, got back on and finished the clinic but he had stepped on my arm and while it hurt I wasn’t injured. His comment was “I hope he tries that with me!”.

With your horse and mine, it is a dick move not based in pain. I too have had him worked up for everything. Best of luck . It’s a good thing we love them!

[SillyHorse]

@CindyCRNA

With your horse and mine, it is a dick move not based in pain.

Until the day comes when they can talk, you cannot know this.

[mfglickman]

@Tiedtotheride

He was gifted to us from a farm where the owner died.

I’m somewhat afraid to ask the obvious question here.

I’m in agreement with others saying this horse is trying to tell you he’s done with jumping. You say you love him, stop asking him to do what stresses him so. You’re setting yourself and him up for more physical and emotional pain.

I sincerely hope the trainer does the right thing by him, whether that’s safe work on the flat, retirement/companion, or a kind end.

[findeight]

Think when CyndyRNA reads this post, she will realize OPs situation with no knowledge of basic dressage and no trainer help to learn it with a non owned or leased horse, no full access to vet records over the last 10 years only being told theres navicular changes really doesnt earn this horse the just acts like a dick label. Even if horse has hurt her and everybody else who has tried to jump him. Doesn’t really compare to a knowledgeable, experienced longtime owners personal horse.

Horse might indeed be a jerk but sounds like its not without reason which OP can do nothing about except stay off of him.

[mfglickman]

Or maybe that people in our barn don’t care to ride spirited horses because they have saintly hunter types who don’t act up. You should probably see me ride before you make assumptions on my training skill set. I took a horse which couldn’t even let someone put reins over her face and have turned her into a fantastic horse for myself who jumps her little heart out. Mares are different though. Again - I came here for some tips on things we aren’t seeing in X-rays and isn’t uniquely evident besides at a long spot. Does he have some behavioral issues on the ground? Absolutely, but I use all aids to negate this behavior including tacking him on cross ties. My mare ground ties and doesn’t leave my side. And on the ground I’d trust her with a 2 yr old.

In my 20 years of riding, never have I ever resorted to posting on a public forum for help. And I would expect there aren’t many professionals on here giving out free advice because they’re busy working up training plans, and know they’re knowledge is worth too much to just hand out. He arrived to my farm with this behavior and I didn’t start riding him until he had been there for 2-3 years. I took him on knowing he had this tick. I’m looking for other options for him, that’s why I’m here.

I have agreed with all commentors that we should go back to ground work and flat work and try to incorporate some dressage training, take jumping out of the picture for him. You shouldn’t comment on someone’s ability if you haven’t seen them ride.

Blockquote

I think video would be very helpful in this situation, if you have it.

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

There’s also a risk-reward benefit. Even if the OP could eventually get around some crossrails on this horse, I’d be pretty pissed if I was scheduled to ride him (or my kid was) in a lesson program. It’s not her horse, the trainer got the horse for a program and he didn’t work out.

I didn’t read the OP as a preteen. I know lots of riders who get very stuck on the idea of never giving up, especially if the horse is deemed useless. I agree with another poster that even with training, this is a pro’s horse without a pro level of talent or health.

[Equestrian24]

Agreed about riders being stuck on “never giving up”, even if they’re putting themselves in a dangerous situation. I think in some circles, it’s taught that you never give up, there’s no such thing as a “bad”/dangerous horse, don’t be a “fair weather rider” and take the easy way out/quit when things get tough, etc. I think there’s a good middle ground, however, where you push yourself to be better WITHOUT putting yourself in a needlessly dangerous situation, and that involves knowing when it’s not worth it to keep pursuing something that is not likely to end well.

I think sometimes it’s a pride thing as well, as I know from experience that it’s disheartening when you don’t succeed with a horse no matter how badly you want to, or what you try. Not to mention that some people perceive giving up in any situation to = weakness or lack of skill/ability, though really, sometimes it’s about being smart and weighing the costs and benefits of a particular situation.

[Bogie]

@Tiedtotheride

In my 20 years of riding, never have I ever resorted to posting on a public forum for help. And I would expect there aren’t many professionals on here giving out free advice because they’re busy working up training plans, and know they’re knowledge is worth too much to just hand out.

You have gotten advice from many experienced equestrians and trainers on this thread who have offered your their knowledge and expertise to try and save your neck. If you spent some time on the forum reading, you’d realize what a gift you’ve received.

CBoylen (who is VERY accomplished in the hunter world), summed it up.

Rarely do so many on COTH agree, but it’s pretty much unanimous here. Stop jumping the horse.

You have your answer, it’s the front feet. 90% of the time the ones that do this on landing, it’s the front feet. Even if they are fixable though usually the horse never unlearns it, both because it’s a neat trick almost impossible to stick, and because people start riding with a short release and sitting up immediately on landing, replacing the front feet pain with mouth and back pain and reinforcing the idea that landing hurts. In any case, generally not a fixable learned habit. Your trainer is smarter than you are, don’t jump the horse.

[SillyHorse]

@Tiedtotheride

Or maybe that people in our barn don’t care to ride spirited horses because they have saintly hunter types who don’t act up.

I missed this before. “Spirited!” Now I’m starting to believe you are 14.

[TheDBYC]

Horses speak. It’s incumbent on the human half of the equation to get their head out of you-know-where and listen. A tip from your resident crunchy granola hippie trippy yoga teacher reiki practitioner — it ain’t gonna be in English and you might not like what the horse has to say. Shut up and listen, anyway.

There’s a handful of folks on this thread who seem to need a reminder to stop anthromorphizing their horse already. Horses aren’t d–ks or a$$holes. They don’t wake up and think, "Yeah, I think I’m going to stick it to the man today…’ The OP’s horse and others like it are a) in pain b) were in pain and still think they are due to lack of help with neuro repatterning c) some combination of a and b has lead to them being completely fried psychologically. If a horse is actively trying to kill you, there’s a problem. It may not be a problem of your own making. But if you choose to insert yourself into that horse’s life, it is yours to solve. Listen to what the horse is telling you it needs.

[lenapesadie]

@CindyCRNA

With your horse and mine, it is a dick move not based in pain. I too have had him worked up for everything. Best of luck . It’s a good thing we love them!

Does your horse also have navicular changes in the front like the OP’s?

[cattywampus]

"They don’t wake up and think, "Yeah, I think I’m going to stick it to the man today…’ ".
…I mean, my ponies just unionized, citing the arrival of freeloader goats in the barn, and are demanding a larger daily grain ration plus the addition of massage therapy for Spencer to their medical/dental/podiatry benefit plan. They KNOW I can’t afford to bring in strike breakers, so I am in negotiations with their IWW rep.

[crackerjack]

@CindyCRNA

With your horse and mine, it is a dick move not based in pain. I too have had him worked up for everything. Best of luck . It’s a good thing we love them!

This makes me roll my eyes. With my first horse, he had some what looked like dickish behaviour. He’d bolt back to the barn and then later randomnly stop and kick out. Me being a teen at that point listened to my coach- because what did I know. She said the bolting was his attitude. (disclaimer it wasn’t galloping back to the barn but more like trotting sideways with no hope of me stopping it). When he started kicking out- even 16 yr old me knew something else was up. I didn’t listen to my coach and we took him to the vet hospital and yup we found out he was in a lot of pain. He was retired.
My current horse would suddenly spin 180 degrees- usually in corners. Flexion tests showed nothing. We knew he had a chip though that was stable although my vet and the vet hospital said it would need to come out in the future. He did have high anxiety as well. We kept an eye on the chip with regular xrays, and the time came and the chip came out. And the spinning went away. So not behavioural. In must have been pinching at random times causing the behaviour.
The OP’s horse is saying loud and clear that something is wrong.
Even if there was nothing physically wrong, why push a horse who obviously does. not. want. to jump to jump? We are supposed to be caregivers to these animals. This horse either cannot do what they want him to do (most likely) or does not. He’s dangerous - just stop!

And no he’s not…spirited.

[Angela_Freda]

@Tiedtotheride

Sometimes I just wish they could talk

They can.
It requires that we be willing to listen.

[Angela_Freda]

@Tiedtotheride

he was so heavy on the forehand I couldn’t get him back

This is where dressage helps.
Michael Matz rode Rolls Royce in GP jumping, and when the stallion was home for breaks he still had excellent fourth level Dressage, because MM schooled Dressage as most of the top, well educated riders in most English disciplines do.

Now I see OP is no longer sharing on this thread that I hadn’t realized was older…

If you love a horse, you should love them unconditionally.
That means accepting who and what they are, rather than stuffing their square self in a round hole. If this isn’t Black Stallion Syndrome, you would see that.

If you don’t know how to “do Dressage”, its time to find a better trainer.
Wherever I rode, I always tried to be the smallest fish in the biggest pond I could afford, because that is where you will learn: where you are the person who knows the least. You can start by attending clinics as an auditor and developing your eye for proper work, and riding.

One is not a great rider because they can stay on through a buck, one is a great rider when they execute a round that looks like it was easy.
Whether it was or not? Only you should know that.

[Mander]

@Angela_Freda

Wherever I rode, I always tried to be the smallest fish in the biggest pond I could afford, because that is where you will learn: where you are the person who knows the least.

Love this advice. As much as it feels good to be the best/most knowledgeable person around, humility is a small price to pay for the opportunity to learn.

[CindyCRNA]

I agree with you. However, you need to be (or maybe you are) on the FB page Shiteventersunite and Shitshowjumpers…there’s one for dressage too. SOME HORSES ARE DICKS. Not everyone is in pain. I agree the diagnosis of navicular, which can be a catch all term for heel pain, warrants consideration. My horse loves cross country. His ears are forward and he is looking for the jumps. This same horse can see another horse galloping in the distance and it sets off a bucking fit. Not everyone is in pain.

[crackerjack]

@CindyCRNA

However, you need to be (or maybe you are) on the FB page Shiteventersunite and Shitshowjumpers…there’s one for dressage too.

I was but couldn’t stand it. All I saw was a bunch of bad riders doing not funny stuff.
No, not every horse is in pain but there’s also some bad backing/breaking being done as well as crappy riders. Bad training obviously results in some dangerous habits and behaviour through no fault of the horse’s. If this horse has been showing this behaviour for years, there’s something seriously wrong. Was it the trainer not even wanting to ride it? Someone is going to get seriously hurt and personally I would call it a day. I definitely wouldn’t be touching it if it were not mine. Like I mentioned previously, if a horse doesn’t want to to something maybe it shouldn’t be doing it. Maybe it should have another job even if that job is being a lawnmower.

[Angela_Freda]

Same.
Those sites show poor riding, whether in the moment which anyone can have, or long term such that the horses aren’t up to the task, either due to poor training or due to untraining due to poor riding.

It’s never the horses fault. Period.