Turnout is an issue if the maximum they are getting is 8. Even an 8 hour minimum is not ideal, and stalling is proven to be detrimental to a horse’s soundness that is not on immediate recovery for an injury.
In light of all of what you’ve shared in the corresponding comments, I agree with others and would pass. $7500 is much too much (MHO) for a horse with a limited show record, unsoundness, and lots of things you would have to unravel before you even get to ride.
$7500!!! Oh heck no OP!
there are too many sound horses to take a chance on this one.
It’s hard, hard, hard to pass on one that already has you feeling that he should belong to you.
I had to once, and I still think about that horse from time to time. A young project horse, he was exactly what I was looking for and had such a cute face and personality to go with it. But the PPE vet said he had some issues in his ankles that might keep him from jumping - but maybe not. It would be wait & see.
My friend practically dragged me out of there while I was figuring out if I could offer the seller less, and then if the horse didn’t work out how I would find him another home … but in the end I passed and gave the seller the vet report.
The seller had never vetted him “because she got him cheap” (that doesn’t change a vet diagnosis or a vet bill). She was a good egg. She dropped his price and changed her advertising to honestly explain the issue. She found a good home for him with someone who had no interest in jumping, took the loss she incurred and moved on.
The point is that the horse was ok and ended up with a good future, even though I didn’t buy him. He didn’t need me, really. And as it turned out I didn’t need him, either. I had even already known what his new name should be, and I’m saving it for some future project that is right for that name, and for me. 
Seller wants a deposit … because he might disappear? I agree $7500 seems high. Honestly, this seller is probably the biggest reason you should not go forward. If you really want the horse, tell her your final offer is a 3 month care lease, no deposit, and $5000. If she says no, keep shopping.
So was the horse barefoot or shod the other times you tried him? If he was barefoot and sound before I’d be highly suspicious. “He just needs shoes” is a great excuse for a little lameness that shoes might or might not resolve. But hell, I’d be suspicious of this person anyway from everything you’ve said.
Slightly different situation but here’s an example of how honest sellers who have the horses’ best interests at heart behave when something comes up in a PPE. A few years ago I vetted a young horse and xrays showed OCD lesions. My vet advised me not to purchase at that time and that they should be rechecked periodically. I provided the breeder with the xrays. About 8 months later she had him re-xrayed at her expense and shared the films with my vet, who then felt it was safe to purchase. I did, and the breeder even honored the original price even though it normally would have increased with age.
A lot of people have shared good advice and considerations, but just to clarify the question we’re mulling: It’s not if we should buy or even lease this horse tomorrow. It’s whether we wait a few weeks, see if he’s moving better in shoes, and if so, do another vet lameness exam. And IF he passes that, consider whether or not to do a lease to buy.
The costs would be the additional exam, fees for an escrow service to hold the lease deposit, trailering, time, and a potential risk of complications returning the horse if he doesn’t work out after the trial. (I’m not counting board and general upkeep since we’d be paying the same as we are now–the horse I’m leasing would return to his owner).
He looks very sweet and nice to ride. It might be a worth while gamble just keep in mind that it is just that a gamble; have a plan for him if things don’t work out. He’s deserving of a good life, if a XC career doesn’t work can you still provide a good life for him?
I’d take the chance; I had a Thoroughbred with very tender feet; had to be shod or he’d be very sore-footed, also where I kept him only had grass paddocks to ride in (which were also used for turnout) and he was very short-strided in them. When I moved him to a place that had a sand dressage ring, he really strode out. Of course where this horse is, looks like footing is not a problem. My horse also took a 20 minute warm-up and was a 7 day a week ride or he’d be very stiff. I put him on J-Flex from Springtime company and that made a world of difference.
This horse looks very nice to me although I suspect if his feet start feeling good and he’s not sore, he’ll be a bit spicy!
Oh, in this shape I wouldn’t pay 7500 for him. If he’s going to a sale barn I doubt they’d get that for him.
If you don’t mind my asking, how old was your TB and how long would he typically stay tender footed if he didn’t have shoes?
Can someone give me the 101 on how a sale farm works? I think that would give me a better idea of how much bargaining power we have. Does the owner pay board until the horse is sold and the farm takes a commission? Or does the owner sell the horse to the farm and they keep all sale proceeds? If the former, does the sale farm reset the price if they don’t agree with owner’s list price?
I guess perhaps I have a different perspective coming more from a seller’s view vs a buyer. I buy and sell over 100 Tb’s a year here and have easily bought and sold over a thousand horses. I think all the things you have written are easily being interpreted as a “lame” horse but let’s see this from another view. A vet comes to vet a horse. Maybe it’s slightly off…as it jogs up a .5 or a 1 out of 5. That is within normal limits for a 12yr horse in my opinion. The vet might say something like the horse is slightly off but I am not concerned and the buyer here’s it as the horse is lame. I don’t know many Tb’s that are comfortable barefoot and it has been an extremely dry year and the ground is very hard. I would say 80% of my Tb’s coming off the track have some degree of foot soreness especially changing track shoes to regular shoes and I pull their hind shoes. It’s normal and it will always come up on a vetting. If you want to walk away over something silly like sore feet than you are going to be shopping for a long time because right now the ground in the mid atlantic area is just brutal and the majority of horses are going to be foot sore. It will cause them to protect themselves and be slightly sore. I guess that to me is normal. If they aren’t putting on shoes and pads and doing all that that do that and easily fixed. It won’t go away right away either so don’t expect a miracle. Half the time when I get horses in that were barefoot and put shoes on they are pretty sore because their soles were bruised. It isn’t an instant fix. I could read the comments on the 20 min warmup meaning something much different. Perhaps he just doesn’t give his best work until after he is warmed up? That is again open to interpretation and doesn’t mean he is lame/sore/etc. A lot of horses just take a bit to get in front of the leg and really moving up into the contact. I like the videos of this horse. Finding a big horse that will confidently pack along a tall male rider is not an easy thing to find in my personal opinion. Big horses are more expensive because they are in demand. I buy a lot of horses off the track and finding 17+ h tb’s is going to cost me easily $3500 to buy right off the track and that is no training. I market them in the $5k and up range right away if not a lot more so the price is very reasonable for the horse in my opinion especially in the Mid Atlantic Area. I don’t look at vettings the same way everyone here is saying. A vetting should be an information gathering opportunity not OMG the horse is lame pass. The vet didn’t say anything like that from what you are saying so I feel like everyone is quick to read something into it that isn’t being said but perhaps that is just me. Vets are going to make recommendations on what they see on a given day. The seller sounds extremely reasonable to me. Lots of people who own horses perhaps don’t believe in shoes or don’t want to spend money on shoes. It doesn’t mean they are bad people. Not everyone sees eye to eye on those things. Heck people get upset with me when I put shoes on horses that were barefoot I do it for exactly these reasons…hard to get barefoot horses through vettings comfortably! Seller is releasing all info. Trying to accommodate your needs. Absolutely doesn’t sound like they are hiding anything. Those saying there are a lot of horses out there that are sound with no issues have skewed view in my view. ALL horses have something if you look hard enough. It’s all in what you can live with and for me feet are just super fixable. You are looking for something safe, fun and reliable. You have ridden the horse. You like the horse. You have seen him over time and in different situations. Trust me finding one like that isn’t easy. That’s my opinion. So I don’t say run. I say buy the horse
I think that’s a good plan, and if you are comfortable with the negotiated price, that’s fine, too. Although, after she pays a sales barn feed and commission, your offer is likely better.
I think the escrow deposit is smart. The only concern for me would be the owner, but maybe she is having covi d related financial issues? It’s a complicated time to be doing anything.
Good plan, IMO.
But. You & hubby are idealizing this horse as what he could be, if you tweak a few things. You are in the mental world of confirmation bias , right now. Putting too much importance on the possibilities and not enough on the reality.
We all do it. I’m the worst about it, that’s why I recognize it. :winkgrin: I see all what could be and not enough what is. I should not horse-shop for myself.
The problem is that we can’t tweak those things, usually. As was said above, the horse is what he is today. A question mark without an easy path to answers.
I would tell a friend: Keep looking. If in a few months you haven’t yet found anything and he’s still available, you can PPE again.
But don’t put your riding life on hold waiting on this horse. If it’s meant to be, your hubby & he will be together some day.
Staying fixated on this horse may block you from finding a better horse for you and your husband that is out there right now.
The market of availables changes daily. And, keeping the word out that you are looking can help the right horse find you.
My experience might be of some help… I purchased a 15 year old schoolmaster from a sale barn who came with a small amount of “baggage” and she was the best purchase I’ve ever made.
The sale barn/broker took a commission but it was off what the owner would receive, not me the buyer, so the purchase price was higher than what I would have paid going through a private sale. This barn also specialized in very high-end, expensive show horses so prices reflected that. I never spoke to the owner and was not given any of her details as all information had to go through the broker. My understanding is that the owner paid board on the horse until it sold, and the broker would take a commission on the final sale - so the higher the sales price, the more commission received. The benefit to the owner is that the horse was being trained, marketed, cared for, shown, etc by a high end facility with many clients/trainers without having to do any work for it other than pay upkeep. I have a hard time imagining a scenario where an owner would not be paying board and the broker would have to eat that cost, but I’ve only been on the buying side of this arrangement one time so I’m no expert.
As far as my mare goes, I knew really quickly that she was what I needed/wanted even though her age really worked against her (I was looking for a youngster). I was told she would likely need hock maintenance eventually by the broker due to her age and resume, but she was very happy and comfortable both times that I tried her. I think she came up 1 or 2/5 lame on the RF when jogged on concrete in a small circle during the PPE, but the vet was honest that because it was only showing on concrete in a small circle and she seemed so well-suited to me and my goals that it likely would not be a major deterrent unless I wanted to pursue it further, and yes be aware of future maintenance.
I chose to take the risk and bought her, as I felt the risk was justified based on her age, ability and what I needed. That RF flared up exactly one time in the 5 years I’ve had her, and it was when we boarded where the arena was just hard packed base. We confirmed mild ringbone and moved back to a barn with “normal” footing and the issue disappeared.
She is now 20 and has stiffness when warming up, some days more than others, but xrays show very clean for her age/resume and we have been happily competing at Novice/Pretraining eventing for the last ~3 years. The fitter she remains, the less stiff she is. We’ve come across the occasional mystery lameness but it always resolves itself, and even with great draft feet she needs front shoes in the summer or she gets ouchy. She’s had hock injections once and I’m going to try SI injections soon to keep her comfortable but overall she has been happy, loves her job and went over and above what I thought I wanted in a horse.
As far as warm up goes, Ingrid Klimke is a big advocate for a long, slow warm up: I audited a clinic with her 2 years ago and she mentioned at the time that there is absolutely no harm in spending a good 10 minutes in walk work if needed! That really changed my perspective on my expectations for riding.
I hope that is helpful to your decision, whichever way you decide to go. In your case, I’d definitely wait until the current acute lameness is no longer a factor before buying though. If you are willing to try a lease and can come to an agreement with the seller, make sure it’s long enough to give you time to have him sound a while and really be sure it’s a shoeing thing. If the seller isn’t willing to work with you on that, I wouldn’t take the risk.
I might be overly paranoid about this but I would be wondering why the horse in question hasn’t been sold yet. If his type (big enough to carry an adult male) with a good brain is very much in demand why is he still for sale after several months on the market? Maybe I’m just being overly paranoid though!
Has anybody taken x rays of this horses feet in the last few weeks since he’s been sore? Or is there a whole lot of assumption going on?
These days most sales barns charge at least board and usually bill for training and/or sale presentation plus a commission. Back In the day, they took them on contingency, no charge until it sells then a cut of the sales price. That was back when hay was under 100 a ton, horses sold in 45 days or less and nobody had insurance and sued at the drop of a hat. But regardless of how they charge, no sale barn takes a currently lame horse, they cant afford it financially or reputation wise. Even the shadier ones dont start with lame on delivery.
Personally, found that horses that never get used much are left idle for a reason and its not time or anything shared with potential buyers. Too expensive to carry anything unless its not salable. Often it pays to search an OTTBs record, they are public, just need the tattoo # and can at least verify age. Sometimes provide clues.
If this horse was a schoolmaster or had any kind of competition record my advice would be different. But being 12 (at least, do you have his foaling date?), not in work doing what buyer is wanting and no record of ever doing or any other serious work? And at that price plus being currently lame?
Over the years one thing is true, When there is overwhelming agreement on what a poster should do? They do the opposite. Just get those feet x rayed before you take it home and set a budget for trying to fix him up on that one month trial. And line up a place to retire him to if he doesn’t work out or stay sound.
All good counter points to consider as well. Which is why this is such a hard decision! And I agree with you–there might be a lot of other horses out there in general, but there are not a lot in our area that are checking the specific boxes we have. I imagine Mid-Atlantic probably sees more prospects than we do so if you’re saying it’s not easy finding something like this in your area, it’s that much harder where we are.
I’ve been trying to line up a few horses to view this week–basically all the current listings I could find that remotely fit our needs. The best prospect out of these got sold today. Second best option will likely go pretty fast, too. Two are 4 yos, which is a little younger than ideal, one is 8 but hasn’t been in work for a few months and is still green.
I do want to clarify that our vet wasn’t too bothered by the initial lameness on the front foot. It was only when the front was blocked and the hind ALSO unexpectedly came up lame that she became concerned. She didn’t go into specific details b/c we didn’t do further diagnostics but she felt that the hind might be more than a foot issue and started cautioning us about moving forward unless more is done to pinpoint the issue.
Admittedly I don’t have much experience dealing with feet issues, but they’ve always sounded a bit intimidating because you could be futzing around with a lot of different options until you find something that works. I hope in this case it’s just that he needs something to protect his thin soles.
I think we’d be looking at having to put in another $500-600 for the additional costs I noted above (exam, escrow, etc.).
Initially it was b/c the seller had him way overpriced. $20K for an 11 yo (at the time) with basically no/very little show experience and not in a consistent training program (other than once a week lessons, some dressage shows, and a couple HTs with the leasee one of which they didn’t even get to XC b/c of a fall in stadium). She also wasn’t in a position to HAVE to sell him because the leasee was paying all his expenses and care. So I think she was softly offering him for sale to see what she could get, but it was probably a mistake mis-pricing him so much that she had to keep coming down on price. i
When I asked the trainer why he’d be sitting so long the other reason he shared was that the horse is a real leg ride. His working student confirmed that when she tried the horse. But that didn’t end up being the case for my husband, who had a fairly easy time getting him going, but he also is pretty strong and has long legs. The leasee told us she really thinks this horse is best suited for a male rider.
Before us, there was a girl who was interested in him as a first time horse but the leasee didn’t feel they were a great match. After some initial interest they stopped inquiring. Never got to a PPE. Supposedly there’s another family looking at him this week and I’m curious how that will go.
Here is the thing…he is a 12yr and okay he had a mild positive flexion on the hind leg. That may mean something but it might be nothing. I think most vets are going to say that flexions aren’t the end all be all when it comes to diagnostic work. He looked sound in the videos so again how picky do you really want/need to be? It could just be that he isn’t fit, doesn’t have hind shoes on and isn’t pushing as evenly as possible. I often think buyers hear the vet say something and boom vetting is stopped over something that is really nothing. I suppose I see that from a sellers perspective but FLEXIONS are not everything guys and 99% of the time xrays show no issues in the hind limbs that flex positive.
You might be shocked that just adding shoes fixes the slight soreness. I really wouldn’t consider that a big deal. Even a horse with pads at this time of year is 100% normal regardless of breed. I don’t know many people eventing horses without pads right now because the ground is hard. This is all normal stuff.
The only reason he is still on the market is probably his age. Everyone wants a young horse… but for your needs he sounds like a good option. If you aren’t the type of buyers that are confident enough to buy a horse quickly the big young horses will be snapped off the market quickly.
Forgetting what you’ve posted about him, after watching the videos, I would walk.
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