Horse spooking and refusing - opinion on her eyes?

[J-Lu]

I’m glad you are seeing a pattern!

I have a friend in The Hague who leases a lesson horse with three riders. I actually went and visited and rode this horse! This horse had a shared notebook among the three riders so they could jot notes on the horse’s attitude, performance and needs. Maybe the other riders are having bad rides when you do? You and the trainer can look at her vulva and determine when she’s in heat to better correlate her behavior.

Maybe some kind of coordination between the people riding this horse is in order to help figure this out.

BTW, the barn had zero turnout and this horse got all of her exercise from dressage lessons and rides on the beach (a couple of city blocks away).

[Posting_Trot]

I think that asking the horse’s owner if there some additional magnesium and Vit. E could be added to the horse’s ration might be a good move. Both are pretty inexpensive (at least in the U.S.), and a trial period of 4 to 6 weeks would indicate whether they were helping at all with the spooking.

But perhaps you’ve sorted this out already, and if so, good for you for being able to figure it out!

[NYCspaz]

Mini-update on the past 3 days/rides:

Friday: lesson in the new scary indoor arena, no spooks but some looking (kept her busy/bent inside at this parts), she was very good but worked mostly on shoulder-ins so mostly walk/trot.

Saturday: lesson in outdoor, no spooks but we were both very stiff the whole ride. Again mostly shoulder-ins so mostly walk/trot. She spooked while we were walking out of the arena.

Sunday: solo ride with the goal to focus on getting my shoulders back/belly button out mostly with no stirrups (I’m in the process of converting from hunter seat to a ‘classic’ seat and it’s taking some work…). She was doing great, very relaxed and it felt like we were finally clicking as she requires a very ‘correct’ ride to be her best (which is why I am leasing her as she was always the most difficult for me before). We took a walk break and she did a big spook at the jumps we had already passed ten times. I nearly fell off but no problem, we went back to work and focused on her this time and collection/extension. She finished very good. I turned her out in the small arena and she started scratching her privates on a pole (which I had seen her do the week before too, but on a gate and her blanket got stuck so I had to help her out). Asked the trainer what was up, he said it was from being dewormed 2-3 weeks ago. OK. Took her out to graze, big spook at a kid that was running up from the distance. OK.

So I talked to the head trainer and basically asked what is considered ‘normal’ for her. He said that sometimes “the cables don’t touch in her brain,” she’s a bit of a spaz (what can I say, we’re two spazzes in a pod…) and she can get scared all alone so he agrees it’s not my fault, but to basically ignore her spooks - ride her past it again pretending nothing had happened and get her back to work (which is typically my approach either way). He agrees she is a “confidence taker” and that it is worse in the winter and when she is not getting turn out. So I’m going to see how March goes as it’s getting warmer and she will start getting turned out again.

I did find a picture of her as a 4 year old with the description, “She’s a nice mare, easily scared, but very good!” This basically describes her 10 years later too. And few show results from the past 10 years where she was eliminated. But she has also made it to national championships so it seems to be part of personality too: she’s a nice mare, easily scared, but very good (fun fact: she’s also a Gemini).

Later in the year I’d like to do a few shows, ride more cross-country and jump a little higher so I’m not sure she’s the best match for me long-term but I’m going to see how it goes for the next month at least. I’m still not convinced there is not a pain or hormonal issue somewhere but since she’s not my horse I can only be her advocate. In the meantime I’m going to continue working on mostly walk/trot stuff on our own and try to take it easy with her but keep her mind occupied at the same time.

[KBC]

See, here am I looking my 64th birthday in the eye, and for most of those years I would have agreed with the “cables don’t connect with her brain” throw away…and I guess it is still sometimes a valid diagnosis, if everything else has been ruled out.

My opinion has been changing gradually, and I guess that is what my new (last May) horse was sent to teach me. He was a saint, he started having little issues, which I put down to the honeymoon being over, he was testing me, maybe he’s an arse after all.

Turns out he is PSSM1 N/P1, and most everything we were seeing can be traced back to that…

I will never again be satisfied with the “cables don’t connect” unless I know that everything has been explored, and possible remedies found.

[NYCspaz]

@KBC

I will never again be satisfied with the “cables don’t connect” unless I know that everything has been explored, and possible remedies found.

I agree with you 100%, and if she was mine I would do vet, osteopath, saddle fitter ASAP. This situation has made me consider buying more seriously but at the same time has made me appreciate leasing too (since I rode this mare at least a dozen times before and would have bought her in a heartbeat, but am now very happy to have this time to get to know each other a little more ).

[Abbie.S]

But see, none of what you described is because the horse has some ulterior motive, agenda or is willfully being disobedient because he can. Horses don’t think that way, humans do.

Everything you described is VERY indicative of horses who A) haven’t been taught how to focus on the rider (or that their focus is of the utmost importance and that it would benefit them to focus on you), B) don’t believe that they CAN focus on you because, again, it has not been proven to them that focusing on you is the solution to their concerns, and/or C) demand their riders rise to a certain level of leadership and don’t have much use for those riders who don’t.

I’m a stickler for word choice because I teach, and I’ve learned how easy it is for people to impart things from certain words. The problem with words like “agenda” and phrases like “taking advantage of” is that they imply foresight and/or malice on that part of the horse. The horse is capable of neither. He lives and responds in the moment to needs that from his point of view are very real and very important. If you can learn to respond to his needs in a way that is meaningful to him and gets across the idea that IF he tunes into us, we can not only notice his problems but resolve them for him, that’s a very powerful tool, indeed.

And yes, I’ve also seen horses get fixed by more competent horsepeople only to have them sent back to their owners to struggle and fall apart. Happens all the time. It is not because the horse is taking some kind of advantage of the owner but because the owner does not possess the timing, feel and awareness to step up and provide the type of support the horse needs to he doesn’t fall into those habits. As I once heard Harry Whitney say, “it’s amazing what a horse won’t do if you don’t let him.”

I’ve also seen horses who possess a higher level of confidence than others and simply don’t feel they need humans. These are often those “highly opinionated mares” (or geldings), “tough horses” and ones that get cast off as difficult, unwilling, etc. In reality, these are horses that are simply that much more sure of themselves and don’t see how you or I could be of much help to them. They require YOU to rise to the occasion and show them - in a way that matters to them - that you CAN be of help to them.

[Abbie.S]

The OP’s most recent update kind of confirms my above post, and it is disheartening to hear that the head trainer’s advice is to ignore the horse’s spooks because “the cables don’t touch her brain.” What an imbecilic thing to say…

The spook is a communication, plain and simple. Sounds like the mare needs a very confident and aware rider to be able to feel that she herself can start to relax and trust that she is safe. It is unfortunate that those in charge of her care don’t seem to grasp that and assume instead she is somehow defective. Hopefully, OP, you can do a little bit better than they are demonstrating they can do.

[IPEsq]

Sounds like hormones have a good bit to do with it.

[findeight]

On horses spooking to get out of work…No they do not have an agenda they thought up themselves. They were taught the behavior results in the reward of rider quitting or avoiding correcting the behavior. We either train or untrain every time we so much as touch them often teaching them things we dont mean to. The more riders a horse has, the more unintended “training” can result. Really like the idea of all riders keeping a log, what a good idea in barns and situations like this.

Once learned, it can be hard to school out, tends to crop up the instant horse senses rider losing focus. Even correcting medical or physical issues does not guarantee its gone.

Do think some horses have more trouble staying focused but not because of thinking up evasions in advance.

[BigMama1]

If this horse has been reactive / spooky since the age of 4, it doesn’t sound to me that a new issue such as pain or hormones is the root cause. If she’s getting limited turnout and is being ridden by multiple people, not all of whom are able to give her the direction and confidence a spooky horse needs, her behaviour doesn’t sound surprising at all.

[J-Lu]

Fair post, I see your points and strict use of terminology. Thanks for explaining them!

I’ll add, check out the below post. I don’t think all horses fit into the bin you describe (I know 3 that don’t). But that is a good post.

[J-Lu]

Interesting and I see your points. Thanks for responding.

I disagree that some horses don’t spook to get out of work because I’ve dealt with this and had 3 different FEI/GP riders confirm. $$$ on vets and an equine opthamologist. And I am a confident rider - I’ll go down with the ship if need be. I’ve ridden very confident horses and am not intimidated. One GP rider/trainer has a currently GP horse like this that still spooks along the side of the arena she used to very much spook at as a started horse. Horse has been in the same arena for about 12 years. Horse was uber-vet checked and she can only conclude it is mental. Trainer did multiple approaches to this spooking. This trainer starts many horses for breed association testing and brings some to/through FEI. She trains with BNTs and spent half a year training in Germany with the best - she’s very good. Dressage is in her family. The guy who trains out of the barn has noticed this trait in certain horses over the years and owns one as a resale horse. The horse is really spooky and reacts to increasing work by spooking. The horse might be mentally overwhelmed but he can go by something 20 times and then look at it the 21st time and notice it and spook.

It’s not always about the rider. In my direct and indirect experience, some horses will test the rider by spooking even when they didn’t get out of work in the past. Spooking seriously by definition changes the immediate workload and provides a break. It is easier to go splay-legged and inverted or slam on the brakes with the head in the air than to continue using ones body in work.

But this is just my experience. It helps (me) that pretty accomplished trainers I know or have worked with agree that some horses are just spooky and many of them learn to change to work load in that moment.

[Abbie.S]

My response to your examples would be that despite all their accolades, those riders were still not meeting the needs of the horses they were riding.

At the end of the day, the horse doesn’t care about what BNT you ride with, what human-created “level” you ride at, how many awards you’ve earned or anything else that we assign value to. The horse cares about how you make him feel, whether you notice his concerns and whether you address them in ways that are meaningful to him.

There certainly are some lines that are more sensitive than others. The Jazz line of Dutch Warmbloods comes to mind. But to leave it at “well, the horse is just spooky”, IMHO, is a way for the human to avoid taking responsibility.

I guess if someone said to me “my horse is spooking to get out of work” my response would be “why?” What are you asking of him that he feels he must escalate to the point of spooking to avoid doing? What might he be trying to tell you?

[blue_heron]

Idk… I’m kind of on both sides. My horse gets spooky when he’s tired and when the work gets more difficult. It’s just his way of saying “this is difficult.” So no, he’s not standing around plotting to spook, but as soon as he’s feeling a lack of confidence, he’ll spook at anything. It’s a fine line. He doesn’t get to not do anything difficult at all ever because he has a behavioral spook, but it can also tell me that if we introduce something new and the spooking reaches a peak, it’s probably too much too soon.

I’ve learned to feel the spook as I’ve gotten used to him when before I couldn’t feel it before he would spook. I just didn’t know him that well. Now, if he threatens a spook he gets a big leg aid, a tap with the whip, and overbent to the inside, and voila, spook b gone.