Not Probably DEFINITELY would cause ulcers
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I think the tripping is a very important symptom and should be emphasized when talking with any vet. That would lead me to check the collateral ligaments in his front feet (blocking can narrow it downâyears ago when my older mare was dealing with this issue, the only way to definitively diagnose was via MRI).
You probably are dealing with a bit of a âcascadeâ of issuesâthere was probably something painful starting it all, but by now I would definitely suspect ulcers and sore muscles in various places.
If you need help dealing with your parents and trainer: getting a more definitive answer now, versus paying for attempted (and ultimately unsuccessful) âfixesâ over time is likely to be less expensive. Also, how much do they value your life? Your confidence? I mean, seriously, if the trainer canât ride him successfully, and they donât have the funds to get him to a good vet for thorough diagnostics, it would be better (IMO) to turn him out to pasture for a year or even put him down rather than put you back up on him.
The old mare I mentioned turned explosive when she had ulcers; started refusing jumps when she strained her SI; developed only a slight limp when she tore the collateral ligaments but started tripping apparently randomlyâall of these at various times during her career (sheâs now retired in my pasture and, at 26, happily bosses around all the other horses). And she was one of the smartest, most generous and careful horses ever, whom I had to be careful with because she would perform beyond her limits if I asked and was always very stoic.
In short, any of these issues can turn the best horse dangerous if the humans responsible for it do not listen. It may be extra difficult at this point to untangle the various issues and separate cause from result, making it especially important to get very good and proactive veterinary help.
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Definitely have the vet out (maybe a different one), since this is in no way normal, and stop riding until you can figure out what the issue is, since this is most likely a physical problem at this point and with the way he is acting, riding him would be dangerous.
I would also have a chiropractor out, since in my experience, vets (unless you see a specialist) arenât usually able to offer much help with back/alignment issues, which this definitely could be (sometimes with back issues, the issue itself will be something completely different from where the horse appears to be experiencing pain, and the only way to rule this out would be with a chiropractor).
Also, have you changed his saddle at any point in time? Someone at my barn got a new saddle and it didnât fit her horse that well, but for the first few months, he was fine (nothing other than his usual bad habits that heâd had since she got him a few months prior to the new saddle). Now he takes off bucking randomly and a friend rode him and says he feels like heâs going to explode. He also used to be able to go around in a snaffle, but the bucking/bolting has gotten so bad that his owner put a hackabit on him and he still bolts/bucks through that. My point here is back/saddle issues donât always show up immediately, but when they do show up, they can get pretty bad, so itâs definitely something to look into (your chiropractor should also be able to tell you if your horseâs problems could be from the saddle).
Ulcers are also a possibility, but they could also be secondary to something else thatâs going on (horses can get ulcers from stress, and if he is in pain elsewhere and still being asked to perform, that could be stressful enough to cause ulcers).
Overall, have a vet and chiropractor out and be safe. The things Iâve mentioned are only a couple of the many possible causes of his behavior, and really the only way to get to the bottom of this is to have him looked at by a professional (or professionals).
Hello there, i update after a while.
I have stopped riding him, because the last time i did, after i gave him like a week of rest and two weeks without jumping to see if he improved he bucked me off and basically jumped over my head, almost hitting it, while usually horses avoid you when you are on the ground. I wasnt afraid, i even got back on, but my parents were so scared and said he was to be sold. I was so angry, i have been them for a month that he needs help but they wont act.
Now to decide what to do iâve not been riding him for 2 weeks, only randomly lounging him and letting him out. 2 days ago, my trainer touched a spot in his back with a precise pression and my horse instantly reacted by twitching in that area. Of course, he has pain there and everything i went through is clearly attributable to this. But my trainer went : oh he reacts a lot there, but he is just a jerk every horse has some muscolar weakness this isnt pain, he is just very sensitive and overreacts. It was OBVIOUS pain, whether from a typical soreness, whether from a more serious problem. I got so worried, cause its not fair for the horse, since my parents plan was to let my trainer ride him to sell him.
I told my parents about this back pain, but they still need to see his âcontractionâ as a reaction to being touched there. So they called my trainer, and of course he said the same thing : its just a weakness not pain. They told me, you wanna spend more money on a vet and he probably has just some soreness? We just need to sell him cause even if we fix the problem its his reaction to pain the problem, he is a dangerous horse.
Words cant describe how much stress i have in this period. I feel SO guilty for my horse who is suffering and he is being insulted as a âjerk horseâ when he is just reacting to pain.
I dont know what to do anymore. Im 20 yo but its as if i have no freedom of choice on this matter, even if the horse is mine.
And my parents maybe are right, he is dangerous because of how he reacts to pain, but you cant sell a horse with a back problem. You fix him, then if you decide he isnt for you anymore anyway, you sell him, being sure that he is healthy and happy.
P.S, the point of pain is much behind the saddle position, and i have always used the same saddle in 3 years, so i dont know if its a saddle related problem
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Sorry, this sounds so frustrating.
The location of the pain sounds like it could be SI (sacroiliac)- injections are relatively cheap, I believe (here anyway). Perhaps a combination of SI injection and massage could help?
I donât know what the arrangements are between you and your parents for this horse, but it sounds like you need to assert yourself. It might be uncomfortable, but you have to do whatâs right for your horse. That includes taking control of his care- I would move him to a new barn (your trainer isnât listening to you or helping you) and ignore your parents. They might be upset, or they might respect you more for standing up for yourself. Either way, the way itâs currently going, youâre going to end up resenting a lot of people, and likely this horse is not going to land in a good situation.
Chin up. You can do this!
PS. Sorry if my advice is out of line or unsolicited- I am a stranger on the internet after all, and am not in your shoes. I feel for you though!
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WTF with this trainer?!?
Ă°ĆžËÂĄ
OP, is there is ANY WAY you can move the horse away from this âtrainerâÂ?
He needs a veterinary workup, then a treatment plan. Poor horse. I do feel for you, this is a lot to deal with and you are âbetwixt and between.âÂ
Please put the horseâs welfare first.
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This whole situation is terrible. If the trainer believes heâs inherently a dangerous horse, how is it ethical to sell him and who does the trainer think is going to buy him? Ugh. I assume your parents are involved in the decisionmaking because theyâre paying the bills?
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Yes, my parents are the ones who pay, thats why i have limited power of decision. I could afford a minimum quote for a vet check, lets say 200/300 euros, but for sure not more⊠since i dont have a job, and i feel that my horse needs a lot more
We just moved barn, thats the problem. We found one after looking for 2 years (before we had the horse in another region), because all the other barns in my city are even worse, people here think only about selling you another horse and competing competing competing. So i liked my trainer when i met him, but now im already starting to not trust him anymore.
Anyway i found a video of a horse with back pain that reacts the EXACT same way as mine : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQcQoKaikG4&t=332s (minute 5:40)
so i showed this to my parents, my father said : nah i dont think its the exact same reaction when it clearly is lol
so even the evidence doesnt work.
Having had a horse with back pain issues and SI issues, while providing pain relief (if possible, for example through injecting the back or SI joints) can eradicate a lot of the problems, when they become aggressive and also learn how to dump you and/or practice some very scary evasion techniques that make you have to put your energy into staying on rather than sending the horse forward (thereby giving the horse what he wantsâa release from pressure), that behavioral aspect can be very hard to undo. The longer the behavior goes on, the worse it can be because the horse has learned to anticipate pain and not to trust his people.
While there are some ethical questions about unloading this horse on another person without adequately addressing any of his issues, if you are not able to provide the help he needs, then this might not be the worst thing for him. To take some xrays or ultrasound of the lower back and pelvis, to inject the problem area(s), to do shockwave therapy, etc. are all going to exceed the funds you personally have most likely, even though all but the shockwave are relatively inexpensive in the grand scheme of horse medical costs. Something less expensive might be a course of methocarbamol if your vet will prescribe it after a basic exam.
Everything you said is extremely accurate⊠and what i fear the most. But how am i gonna sell him to someone else? if they do vet checkups and find the problem, who would buy a horse with back pain to fix? People want to buy healthy horses of course. And if the hypotetical buyer wouldnt notice the pain, it is even worse because it means the horse would be sold to someone who wont fix his pain!
Must say i always have the most complicate situations in my life :no:
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You sound like a responsible owner. I am going to suggest something that I havenât seen mentioned. How about getting a job? Put him on turnout board, start working, and when you have money saved up have the vet out. Some time off with Dr green might help him ease some of his soreness. In the meantime you can love on him and do ground work, to keep his mind active. Then when you have the money have the vet out. Good luck to you.
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Emphasis mine. :eek: I would hope that you would disclose the pain issue and what youâve done to address it up-front, and not try to hide it! I realize that will make it harder to find a buyer and reduce the amount that you can ask for this horse (probably resulting in him being a give-away), but to do otherwise is NOT a favor to your horse, or the person who might be badly injured by the behavior your horse is displaying. His BEST chance of a good home â should you decide to sell before working out his pain/issues/dangerous behavior â is to sell with full disclosure to someone willing to put in the effort, time, and expense to resolve his problems. As you noted yourself in the quote above, it would be worse for the horse if the buyer didnât notice the pain and you didnât disclose it.
If you arenât willing to be up-front and honest about your horseâs problems with potential buyers, then as recommended by earlier posters, turning him out to pasture for a few months until you can afford to do the required vetting is another option.
To be honest, IMHO, it would be more fair to your horse (and to the riders who may be injured by him before they realize how dangerous he is), to either 1) euthanize him if you canât afford to treat him, or 2) retire and keep him comfortable and pain-free as a pasture pet, or 3) find him a good home with someone fully informed and willing to address his pain and issues (not necessarily in that order of preference!).
If you decide to find him another home and your parents are reluctant to disclose his issues, ask them how theyâd feel if his next owner (or perhaps the new ownerâs child) gets dumped by this horse and killed or ends up in a wheelchair for life. You know this horse well and know how unpredictable and unsafe he is to ride currently, his next owner wonât have that advantage.
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Agree from experience. EPM, ulcers, kissing spine, neuro of some sort, pain seems the problem. Let me say that many of us have had horses that are just not sound or fixable, and we have had to make appropriate decisions for those horses. Not disclosing issues is never the best decision for the horse. Representing him as a pasture pal, or euthanizing, often is.
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Hi theninfea, Iâm Italian like you Ă°ĆžËĆ
ââčââčââčââčââčââčYou received many good advice here from COTH members. I undestand your situation and I agree with other people opinion that first you have to move your horse from that trainer and place. There is no reason in the world to let a horse go without or with only a little hay.
What part of Italy are you from? What about calling a chiro or an equine fisiothrerapist? That would cost about 200 euro.
I agree too that horse is in pain, I believe you should call a saddle fitter too. And give him some rest. In my opinion heâs working too hard, as It often happens in Italy regarding sport horses Ă°Ćžâąâ
Move him in a place with good big paddoks and a careful barn management for a couple of months (this will also be a very cheaper accomodation I believe) In the meantime call in a chiro or a fisio and ask them about a groundwork which could help your horse.
I feel you love this guy and heâs worth another chance.
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This wouldnât be the first time a trainer doesnât see any need to change their horsekeeping methods, or thinks a horse is choosing to act poorly instead of believing its pain related. The OP is younger and parents foot the bill- the parents trust the professional theyâve hired.
It sounds like the horse might not be in a full training at this time? Some time off, inconsistent lunging, then riding- even for a horse getting lots of turnout, the irregular work routine probably isnât helping. I havenât read through all posts but has there been suggestions for supplementing riding time with âlow impactâ in-hand work, ground driving, or lunging, if an extended period of time off isnât an option at the current trainerâs barn?
Even if OP were to get a job to take over all decision making from her parents, by the description of the trainer it seems like heâs pretty fixed in his approach.
OP- if you were to find a pasture board situation for the horse, do you know of another barns/trainers with a good reputation that could later help re-start your horse under saddle? Pasture boarding the horse somewhere for down time is only part of the equation. Someone then has to get back on the horse- work through nerves & defensiveness, and either see if heâll be better for the OP or safe to sell. It doesnât seem like the OP should single-handedly tackle this.
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Iâm the type that looks for the most simple things first. Horses donât act like jerks on purpose. Heâs trying to tell you something is not right. Iâm sorry your trainer does not see it that way. I would start with time off and a massage to help him reset his muscles. If he had sore hocks, he was likely holding tension in places that are now surfacing simply because you fixed the hock problem. Get him a massage, time off and bring him back into work very slowly, all aimed at rhythm/relaxation before you even think of jumping.
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Hello there, i give one last update.
Its been almost two months since everything begun. One month or more ago, ive decided to stop riding this horse, and thats what i did. I only lunged him, took him out walking and nothing more.
The vet came, and he once more said that this horse is super healthy, no back problems, nothing. So i decided after more than 1 month to try to ride him. The first two days i rode him with super long reins, not asking him anything more than trotting and cantering in relaxation and stretching. He seemed pretty chill. Then immediatly when the next day i tried doing some ground poles (again, with a super relaxed canter almost with no reins contact), he started again being nervous and stressing out. Gave him another 2 days of after this, then tried to do some poles again, he did even worse, bucking me for every single sound he heard from outside the arena, and trying to avoid contact by balking. Moreover he sweated so much with 9 degrees celsius for some ground poles not even with short strides!
I decided to stop riding him again, not because im scared, but because i think that riding should be a pleasure and fun, not stressing out every time i ride this horse.
I was the first one to say that it was impossible that he changed his behaviour without any reason, but now im more inclined to it⊠after all, it seems pretty fair to me that such a big animal rebels against our exploitations for sport, am i wrong?
Anyway im looking for a new owner, hopefully someone who knows how to deal with these cases and gets to take care of him properly⊠maybe by changing barn he s gonna be more happy and find a more serene environment (our arena is next to a very busy road, and there is a lot of noise that in my opinion, stresses out every horse not only mine)
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And even if it is behavioral, putting more pressure on him to do what you want him to do is, obviously, not working, because once a horse becomes convinced that he canât do something (because he thinks itâs impossible, or too dangerous) then it becomes a life and death issue for him. In fact, it wouldnât surprise me that itâs very much like ptsd, and when triggered he panicks.
So at this point itâs likely either serious pain and/or fear, and listening to anyone who wants you to keep doing what youâve been doing is IMO, not in your, or your horseâs, best interests.
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You rode him without poles and he was perfect. That is what he needs at the moment. Months and months to a year of work without poles. You want to jump. He does not.
To me a horse is only worth his training. At the moment his last ride was bucking and playing up. This is not a horse you can sell for money and you must tell every buyer how much he plays up.
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Call vet; have complete workup for bloodwork and ulcers; think about saddle fit, mouth (teeth), bit fit. Horse is speaking volumes. Think about what heâs eating, how much, and when daily. Tooth abcesses can cause this; just rule out pain. He hurts somewhereâŠor find him another job regardless of how much jumping talent he hasâŠhorses will tolerate just so much at times and then say no most vehemently.
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