Horse Trainer vs. Send Horse Away

[Arelle]

@FaithView

Hi, I am young, and thats why I asked this question because I do want to do it right. If you read above, i’ve already stated that I do not want to breed him for color and it only turned out to be a bonus. I loved this horses temperament so much, I bought early. I’ve already been in contact with a professional who will be helping me decide whats best for him and will help me determine if he’s breeding stock or if gelding is the way to go.

I have no issue gelding him if he will not make good breeding stock, admittedly I really hope thats not the case, but I understand the horse world and I know how many people breed because they want to or because they want to know what their horse “babies will look like”. I understand the tension that real professional breeders feel whenever they see someone breeding who has no idea what they’re doing and I grew up seeing what that could do to the foal itself, owning a companion horse who could never be ridden because its front legs would permanently be lame due to poor breeding.

I want to get into breeding, and everybody starts somewhere. I am starting here, my next step is reaching a professional(which I already have), and if it doesn’t work out with this horse. Then so be it, I geld him, he trains to be in reining, and I get deeper into the horse world before buying a quality mare or stud with the resources of those trainers and other horse people I meet along the way. The biggest reason I bought this horse was because I wanted to be in the horse world again. I left home, my quarter horse of 36 years old died earlier this year, and I had the funds to start fresh.

Because I left home it is the first time I won’t have my own facility, but I’m not letting that keep me long. I am lucky enough to have gotten a quality career very young that will help me fund this endeavor and I am more than willing to put in the money and the work to get it done because you hit a key point, I do love it. I want to learn more, and as i mentioned above, when I thought about the university it hadn’t struck my mind that they were “students” until someone said it here and I almost immediately changed my mind and started looking into other routes.

I’ve never had to send a horse away for training, I’ve always had professionals on hand so this is the first time I’ve had to think “Hmmm, what route should I take with his training now that I’m not home” and I wanted the experiences of other to guide me.

I thank you for your input, and I typed up this mass because I wanted to make sure that you understood that I am taking this seriously and I am looking for red flags. I would hate for anyone here to see me as another one of those breeders, because in fact. It will be years before I breed him and thats if both I, a vet, and whichever professional I’m working with thinks he is good stock to do so.

You’re a vet and you’re asking about how to feed a horse, stating you can’t take a pulse, and if they have reactions to vaccines less than a month ago? Bizarre.

I have more questions, is it normal for a horse to be under the weather in the days directly after receiving vaccines? He just received boosters saturday and yesterday he had a bit of a runny nose and just overall seemed lazy compared to his usual self. He rested his head on a friend of mines shoulder and snoozed there while I groomed him. It was cute! Dont get me wrong! But usually he would never stand still for me that long. Usually he stands well for 20 minutes and then he gets antsy and has the need to play.

He’s doing better today, breathing normal and I’m not good at taking pulses but I’m fairly certain it’s within range. Im wondering if you were right about him wanting to rest his head before. I dont have thermometer unfortunately to take his pulse but i think im going to invest in one.

I am raising my first foal. He is currently 7 months old (as of January 8th 2020 at least) and I feel he is a little small. Then again I haven’t been around many growing horses, but even my barn manager felt he was small for his age. I was wondering if anyone new of any supplements that are good to add to a foals diet. My barn manager mentioned that were some some sort of full feed that was good for making sure your horse got all the vitamins they needed.

I’m not in the business of trying to squash your dreams, but it’s really hard to offer good advice when you’re not sincere in what you’re bringing to the table.

[Arelle]

@FaithView

Hi, I am young, and thats why I asked this question because I do want to do it right. If you read above, i’ve already stated that I do not want to breed him for color and it only turned out to be a bonus. I loved this horses temperament so much, I bought early. I’ve already been in contact with a professional who will be helping me decide whats best for him and will help me determine if he’s breeding stock or if gelding is the way to go.

I have no issue gelding him if he will not make good breeding stock, admittedly I really hope thats not the case, but I understand the horse world and I know how many people breed because they want to or because they want to know what their horse “babies will look like”. I understand the tension that real professional breeders feel whenever they see someone breeding who has no idea what they’re doing and I grew up seeing what that could do to the foal itself, owning a companion horse who could never be ridden because its front legs would permanently be lame due to poor breeding.

I want to get into breeding, and everybody starts somewhere. I am starting here, my next step is reaching a professional(which I already have), and if it doesn’t work out with this horse. Then so be it, I geld him, he trains to be in reining, and I get deeper into the horse world before buying a quality mare or stud with the resources of those trainers and other horse people I meet along the way. The biggest reason I bought this horse was because I wanted to be in the horse world again. I left home, my quarter horse of 36 years old died earlier this year, and I had the funds to start fresh.

Because I left home it is the first time I won’t have my own facility, but I’m not letting that keep me long. I am lucky enough to have gotten a quality career very young that will help me fund this endeavor and I am more than willing to put in the money and the work to get it done because you hit a key point, I do love it. I want to learn more, and as i mentioned above, when I thought about the university it hadn’t struck my mind that they were “students” until someone said it here and I almost immediately changed my mind and started looking into other routes.

I’ve never had to send a horse away for training, I’ve always had professionals on hand so this is the first time I’ve had to think “Hmmm, what route should I take with his training now that I’m not home” and I wanted the experiences of other to guide me.

I thank you for your input, and I typed up this mass because I wanted to make sure that you understood that I am taking this seriously and I am looking for red flags. I would hate for anyone here to see me as another one of those breeders, because in fact. It will be years before I breed him and thats if both I, a vet, and whichever professional I’m working with thinks he is good stock to do so.

Are you stating you’re a vet?

[TheHunterKid90]

@Arelle

Are you stating you’re a vet?

I think she’s saying that if a vet, a professional and herself as the owner all agree he is breeding material. 🤷🏻”â™€ï¸

[FaithView]

@Arelle

Are you stating you’re a vet?

No, Hunterkid got it right :).

Im just stating that my opinion will not be the only one involved when it comes to breeding him and that I plan to respect the professionals in the matter until I build more of a platform of knowledge for myself.

[luv2lope]

Arelle is right on the money here with her reply to you.

No offense and this is my opinion only, but I don’t think your colt is breeding material. I think I saw that you posted his pedigree, but none of his family really stood out to me. He may be a wonderfully minded individual, but there are enough of those in the breeding shed with a great pedigree and show record behind them to back them up.

I give you credit for wanting to learn, and that you’re looking for opinions and not rushing into anything. If you want to get ahead, you definitely need to be open-minded-- which you seem to be

The reining horses that you see today are a product of sires and dams that were carefully selected for breeding programs and have made a lasting impact on the industry. Reining (like any other discipline) has become so fine tuned and specialized that the good mares are going to be bred to higher end/ better stallions. That leaves the mediocre ones that will come knocking for a $500 stud fee. This is going to sound harsh, but the people that want to breed to your colt just see his colour and quiet personality and the fact that he has testicles at this point.

The truth is, especially with all breeds, people need to stop breeding cheap POS horses with no purpose. I don’t care if it’s “an own son/ grandson of…”, what has the stallion done to warrant breeding to him? What does the dam line offer/ produce? Responsible stallions owners don’t just breed to anything with a uterus. In my area, I look at a lot of stallions and think “they would be an awesome gelding” or " that SHOULD have been made a gelding."

Showing and promoting your stallion takes $$$$. A lot of stallions that have proved themselves have the money backing them up right from the beginning of their show careers…it’s not a cheap game to be a part of.

As you’re interested in reining, I urge you to check out Matt Mills channel he has on YouTube. He has a series about his Futurity horses that is really neat to watch and offers a lot of insight on the reining game itself. He starts out with 3 stallions but later on 2 of them get the snip-snip because he just feels that they would be better as geldings. These horses are STUNNING individuals.

I think you would be smart to geld your guy and get your feet wet in the reining pen with him. Use that time to build knowledge. There will be an opportunity down the road to get into the breeding business with a top quality stallion if you still desire it.

From the perspective of a mare owner: I own a mare that is very well bred (western pleasure bloodlines). Her sire is a Congress champion, World Show top ten, etc. Her dam’s side is really well bred also.

My mare has a great mind, pretty good conformation, and she’s a super cute mover. If I’m looking to breed to a stallion (I’m not), he has to be well bred, very correct and I also want to see what movement he passes on to his progeny/ what he’s siring in the showpen. I’m not going to breed to some $500 special just because he’s got a great temperament.

I also think mare owners need to be just as critical as stallion owners with breeding selections.

[FaithView]

@luv2lope

Arelle is right on the money here with her reply to you.

No offense and this is my opinion only, but I don’t think your colt is breeding material. I think I saw that you posted his pedigree, but none of his family really stood out to me. He may be a wonderfully minded individual, but there are enough of those in the breeding shed with a great pedigree and show record behind them to back them up.

I give you credit for wanting to learn, and that you’re looking for opinions and not rushing into anything. If you want to get ahead, you definitely need to be open-minded-- which you seem to be

The reining horses that you see today are a product of sires and dams that were carefully selected for breeding programs and have made a lasting impact on the industry. Reining (like any other discipline) has become so fine tuned and specialized that the good mares are going to be bred to higher end/ better stallions. That leaves the mediocre ones that will come knocking for a $500 stud fee. This is going to sound harsh, but the people that want to breed to your colt just see his colour and quiet personality and the fact that he has testicles at this point.

The truth is, especially with all breeds, people need to stop breeding cheap POS horses with no purpose. I don’t care if it’s “an own son/ grandson of…”, what has the stallion done to warrant breeding to him? What does the dam line offer/ produce? Responsible stallions owners don’t just breed to anything with a uterus. In my area, I look at a lot of stallions and think “they would be an awesome gelding” or " that SHOULD have been made a gelding."

Showing and promoting your stallion takes $$$$. A lot of stallions that have proved themselves have the money backing them up right from the beginning of their show careers…it’s not a cheap game to be a part of.

As you’re interested in reining, I urge you to check out Matt Mills channel he has on YouTube. He has a series about his Futurity horses that is really neat to watch and offers a lot of insight on the reining game itself. He starts out with 3 stallions but later on 2 of them get the snip-snip because he just feels that they would be better as geldings. These horses are STUNNING individuals.

I think you would be smart to geld your guy and get your feet wet in the reining pen with him. Use that time to build knowledge. There will be an opportunity down the road to get into the breeding business with a top quality stallion if you still desire it.

From the perspective of a mare owner: I own a mare that is very well bred (western pleasure bloodlines). Her sire is a Congress champion, World Show top ten, etc. Her dam’s side is really well bred also.

My mare has a great mind, pretty good conformation, and she’s a super cute mover. If I’m looking to breed to a stallion (I’m not), he has to be well bred, very correct and I also want to see what movement he passes on to his progeny/ what he’s siring in the showpen. I’m not going to breed to some $500 special just because he’s got a great temperament.

I also think mare owners need to be just as critical as stallion owners with breeding selections.

Thankyou for this, the way you wrote this and addressed different sides of breeding helped quite a bit with my own perspective. Do you know of any impact staying a stallion late can have?/ If I geld him when he is (lets say 2) will he behave any different than if he was gelded earlier?

[cutter99]

@FaithView

Thankyou for this, the way you wrote this and addressed different sides of breeding helped quite a bit with my own perspective. Do you know of any impact staying a stallion late can have?/ If I geld him when he is (lets say 2) will he behave any different than if he was gelded earlier?

I have a cutting horse who was not gelded until he was three. He was owned by a professional trainer, has great conformation, and is extremely well bred. He is a fairly easy horse to get along with, and could be shown by an amateur owner if he were not a stud. He was a prime candidate to remain a stallion, but the trainer who owned him realized she did not have the wherewithal, time and money to promote him as a stallion. Except for a pasture incident where he attempted to breed a mare, he was never actively bred.

But yes, there were some left over side effects from gelding him late. He was a biter for many years. Anything he could grab and bite he would. I will never forget the day he grabbed my ex-husband by the ear and actually drew blood. I walked around on guard for the first few years my ex-husband owned him, and was ready to correct him in a heartbeat if he even thought about biting. It took him years to get over biting. He might occasionally think about it now, but he is now 24 years, and I’ve been disciplining him hard for 20+ years.

Many people have the mistaken idea that gelding early does a disservice to a horse, when quite the opposite is true. If you think they are going to make a good stallion, they will make an excellent gelding.

I work with livestock every day. We raise cattle and in the past have raised hogs. A hard and fast rule here has always been no one ever handles intact males here alone. There are always at least two people, and if something doesn’t feel right, there might be three. We don’t even move bulls from one pasture to another alone. When we had pigs and used a live boar, it was the same deal- never handle them alone, carry a board and pipe to protect yourself with, and never turn your back on them. We have always been lucky enough to have great breeding stock with wonderful attitudes, mainly because my husband sources from very well reputed livestock producers, as well as the fact we tolerate no bad behavior from anything we are raising for stud.

If you really like your colt, geld him. Do it early. And then go enjoy him.

[TheHunterKid90]

@FaithView

Thankyou for this, the way you wrote this and addressed different sides of breeding helped quite a bit with my own perspective. Do you know of any impact staying a stallion late can have?/ If I geld him when he is (lets say 2) will he behave any different than if he was gelded earlier?

it depends on the specific horse for sure…my rule of thumb with my young stock is that as long as they don’t know they have testicles, I allow them to keep them until they’re at least coming 3 year olds (unless they’re common looking, bred average and seem to be of average ability, then I’ll cut them as yearlings.)

of course if they’re running around showing everyone willing (and not willing) to look, their twig and berries…then they get cut regardless of how talented or well bred they are.

And even some of the quietest studs aren’t as successful as they could have been if they were geldings. I have a 5 year old that’s won quite a bit that is by a son of Topsail Whiz that won 177k and produced 344k out of a mare that won 26k and produced 110k…he is conformationally just about perfect and is a perfect gentleman in the barn and around mares…but there are still some days I wonder if I shouldn’t geld him. I think he could have a wildly more successful show career if was a gelding. That little pushiness and dull sided stud mind he gets every once in awhile has cost me a bit of money in the show pen.

But to answer your question, there’s not too many negative factors to leaving him a stud unless he develops negative behavior because of his testicles or trains badly. My vet estimates about a month for every year they are old for the effects of being a stud to wear off. Hormones, habits etc. I find I generally agree with that. I have a 4 year old gelding this spring and late summer he started to feel really good. Like he took a deep breath and let it all out.

[TheHunterKid90]

I’ll also add that if you will be in a boarding type environment I would be gelding him…yesterday!!! Mine maintain good manners and are very carefully handled myself and that’s it. I would not own a stallion knowing every Tom Dick and Harry handle him! And most boarding barns are not equipped to handle a stallion.

[FaithView]

@TheHunterKid90

I’ll also add that if you will be in a boarding type environment I would be gelding him…yesterday!!! Mine maintain good manners and are very carefully handled myself and that’s it. I would not own a stallion knowing every Tom Dick and Harry handle him! And most boarding barns are not equipped to handle a stallion.

The barn I’ve gotten ahold of already cares for several stallions (some their own and some others) and will also be the ones working with him. I have yet to go view their stables or talk details because I only recently started talking to them. I only plan to have him there for about a year or so before buying my own place.
I’ve decided that if he shows poor conformation, average ability by the time he turns 2 then I will geld him. If timeline follows, he will start working with a professional at around 16 months old and if they determine it’s not worth it, then he will be gelded sooner.

[Arelle]

@FaithView

The barn I’ve gotten ahold of already cares for several stallions (some their own and some others) and will also be the ones working with him. I have yet to go view their stables or talk details because I only recently started talking to them. I only plan to have him there for about a year or so before buying my own place.
I’ve decided that if he shows poor conformation, average ability by the time he turns 2 then I will geld him. If timeline follows, he will start working with a professional at around 16 months old and if they determine it’s not worth it, then he will be gelded sooner.

Again, not to be blunt, but: Why wait? Just geld him now.

After reading more and seeing your other posts, it’s very clear. He isn’t stallion material, you aren’t stallion owner material (at this point in your life), and his life will be much happier and stress free as a gelding.

If you really want to be a stallion owner at some point in your life, go get the education needed. Learn from top trainers, show your very cute gelding at top shows, and develop a good reputation for yourself.

Then, when you have a place and you’ve spent several years developing a very solid business plan - go find something that ticks all the boxes (not just double dilute and quiet) and put a plan into action.

[FaithView]

@Arelle

Again, not to be blunt, but: Why wait? Just geld him now.

After reading more and seeing your other posts, it’s very clear. He isn’t stallion material, you aren’t stallion owner material (at this point in your life), and his life will be much happier and stress free as a gelding.

If you really want to be a stallion owner at some point in your life, go get the education needed. Learn from top trainers, show your very cute gelding at top shows, and develop a good reputation for yourself.

Then, when you have a place and you’ve spent several years developing a very solid business plan - go find something that ticks all the boxes (not just double dilute and quiet) and put a plan into action.

Because this wasn’t a question I was even asking. I thank you for the input and i’ve taken it seriously and I am looking into gelding him, but in the end I will be listening to the professionals who physically work with him and work with me. Many owners wait until a horse is 2 to geld and unless he suddenly because a total jerk to handle, then I see no harm in it.

[Arelle]

@FaithView

Because this wasn’t a question I was even asking. I thank you for the input and i’ve taken it seriously and I am looking into gelding him, but in the end I will be listening to the professionals who physically work with him and work with me. Many owners wait until a horse is 2 to geld and unless he suddenly because a total jerk to handle, then I see no harm in it.

Oh, I apologize. I must have misinterpreted “I want to breed him in the future, so do I take lessons or send him to a professional?” as your question - to which almost everyone has answered, “Don’t breed him. Then send him to a professional.”

It may not be the answer you wanted, but it’s the question you were asking.

Good luck!

I already have people asking me about breeding him and while I don’t want to breed him early, (want to wait till he’s around 5-6) I don’t want to limit his abilities because of my own abilities being lesser. I say this because everything i’ve learned is by growing up around other horse trainers, not by any formal training and I fear I may not be good enough for what i want him to be.

Because of this I’m looking into option. So far im seeing 2, hire a trainer to come out and work with me while I work with him, or send him off to a training academy to get a good start on him.

[findeight]

@FaithView

Because this wasn’t a question I was even asking. I thank you for the input and i’ve taken it seriously and I am looking into gelding him, but in the end I will be listening to the professionals who physically work with him and work with me. Many owners wait until a horse is 2 to geld and unless he suddenly because a total jerk to handle, then I see no harm in it.

You are wanting to get into the QH world and have much to learn. Far more owners honestly assess breeding potential before they ever start them under saddle then wait until they are fully 2. If you want to send him out or even haul in for colt starting training or haul to a show, intact males are rarely welcomed. Most colts are gelded before they turn two and start any serious work.

You might want to get a second opinion, and pay for one, from a Pro on any potential for the breeding end.

We aren’t trying to be meanie poo poo heads here. We, in this country, breed too many horses and most owners don’t stop to think about what happens to most of them. Unless the stud is spectacular, bred with currently popular lines and excels under Professional guidance in top shows? Few will want to breed to him and they won’t have particularly good mares to improve him.

The collective opinion on here is most should not breed because we see the result in the low end auctions and kill pens. All came onto the earth with best intentions but average quality horses saturate the market and have poor prospects when they need to be sold. You can’t say you’ll never sell because you don’t know your future. Crap happens. Jobs get lost, barns close, people get sick, hurt p, divorced and even die. Nothing is forever.

The best gift you can give to your horses is making them as marketable as you can and not creating more average horses to face the saturated markets of average horses people thought they would keep forever and ever but now must sell.

Think about it. Nothing wrong with average quality horses, what most of us have, just don’t make more. Just think about it and don’t react emotionally when it comes to honest assessment of your horse…which is why a neutral opinion from somebody else is a very good idea.

[luv2lope]

@FaithView

Thankyou for this, the way you wrote this and addressed different sides of breeding helped quite a bit with my own perspective. Do you know of any impact staying a stallion late can have?/ If I geld him when he is (lets say 2) will he behave any different than if he was gelded earlier?

We had a 4 year old Standardbred gelded at my barn, he never bred anything. After gelding, he was never studdy but he did have that stallion roar to him when he called out. He was like your average easy going horse after getting cut. Even with the quietest, most laid-back stallion-- you still have to be on guard at all times.

We had a husband and wife come in with their yearling “stud colt” at my barn. Well bred–yes, outstanding conformation-- not really. That colt was a bastard, he was MEAN and would line you up to mow you down. Putting a halter on him was no easy task. I do blame the owners 100% for his crappy attitude because they babied and overhandled him from birth and made him the product he was, which was really too bad because he would make a nice show horse (as a gelding). That horse did get gelded at 2, but I heard through the grapevine that he’s still a prick.

I know what Arelle said is coming off as blunt/ harsh but honestly, you really should geld your colt sooner than later. I also think he’s NOT stallion material…at all. Leaving him intact is not easy on a horse, and you can get yourself in A LOT of trouble if you don’t know what you are doing, even if you have professional help.

You would be smart to take a step back and really look at what you are trying to achieve, and then put a plan together. If I were you, I would talk to higher end, actively showing, reining trainers for a truly honest opinion about your colt. Go to shows to watch, learn, and ask lots of questions.

I’m not trying to knock you down, but I just want to offer a realistic viewpoint.

[FaithView]

@findeight

You might want to get a second opinion, and pay for one, from a Pro on any potential for the breeding end.

I am paying for a second opinion, that is why I am waiting. I have heard this and I respect it but after its been repeated it starts to get irritating to hear. It stacks on when I’ve already stated that I have made a firm decision and there are still contesters.
I am a patient person, I like to keep my mind open, and from the start of this conversation saying “Im going to breed him” and then by the end reaching out to a professional to evaluate him for me before deciding such, I think that’s decent progress for someone who was originally seeking experiences on training young prospects.

The decision I’ve made is sticking, and it’s not because I don’t believe or trust anything everyone has said here, its because I want to wait for a professional (that I can confirm is such) meets him and myself.

[findeight]

Good girl. It’s a journey and you never stop learning.

[bugsynskeeter]

Behavior before and after cutting has more to do with handling than it does with how late they were cut.

[Burbank]

You need to be working with him now on good ground manners under a trainer that is use to handling babies, there is lots you can do before he is ready to be started, also being turned out in a group while young is good for him if you can.

As far as trainers in NC I would look into Jerry King, he trains cutters but starts lots of horses in a variety of disciplines and has some good working students and staff under him. He can also give an honest opinion about keeping him intact or not. But promoting a stud is expensive and lots of work.

[FaithView]

@Burbank

As far as trainers in NC I would look into Jerry King, he trains cutters but starts lots of horses in a variety of disciplines and has some good working students and staff under him. He can also give an honest opinion about keeping him intact or not.

I will look into him, I am also looking into Tania Morton, although Jerry king will be much closer to where I’ll be living. Thankyou for the suggestion