Horse used for lessons

[ottbee]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;6367235]
Just wondering, would any of you expect the rider to be responsible to pay for a vet bill if your horse was injured during a lesson?

Like really, unless they were jumping 4’ when you told them no jumping, I really don’t get how you would put the blame on the rider.

If I was paying to ride a horse, and it came up lame during the lesson, there’s no way in hell I would be paying the vet bill![/QUOTE]

For me, I was not thinking the rider/lesson kid would be responsible for the bills, rather the barn owner that made the decision that my horse was a good fit for the rider, was directing the use of the horse during the lesson, and was in a supervisory capacity to the rider. My arrangement is with the BO in the first place not the individual rider, and the riders tend to be beginners under total supervision.

That said, sometimes things ‘just happen.’ And I’m not really talking about those kinds of things, but a more overt injury attributable to a specific event that clearly occurs during the course of a lesson. Probably nothing will happen, but it’s better to plan in advance then try to figure these things out after the fact.

[Jsalem]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;6367235]
Just wondering, would any of you expect the rider to be responsible to pay for a vet bill if your horse was injured during a lesson?

Like really, unless they were jumping 4’ when you told them no jumping, I really don’t get how you would put the blame on the rider.

If I was paying to ride a horse, and it came up lame during the lesson, there’s no way in hell I would be paying the vet bill![/QUOTE]

That’s just lovely… File that one under, “No good deed goes unpunished”. Here’s your broken horse back- thanks for letting me take it for a spin. Anyone else got a free horse I can ride?

[schneidepc]

You should also think about liability coverage. If the BO uses your horse for lessons then your horse should be included in her liability insurance coverage unless you’re in a state with good protection from equine related liability suits. It may not be likely, but if a student is injured riding your horse you want to ensure that you aren’t somehow held liable.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Jsalem;6367258]
That’s just lovely… File that one under, “No good deed goes unpunished”. Here’s your broken horse back- thanks for letting me take it for a spin. Anyone else got a free horse I can ride?[/QUOTE]

Seriously? You would think it was your fault if you were just riding a horse in a lesson, and it came up lame? That’s wild. If you are riding your own horse and it comes up lame, do you view it as being your fault?

If my horse was being used in a lesson, and took a mis-step and hurt himself, or tripped or something, I honestly couldn’t imagine trying to pin the vet bill on the rider or trainer.

Shit happens, horses get hurt. It doesn’t need to be someone’s fault.

[Jsalem]

But see, the horse wouldn’t have taken that bad step if you hadn’t been riding it. I would expect the rider to feel terrible and at least offer some assistance even if I didn’t take them up on it. Your attitude, “too darn bad” would be a real problem for me. If I knew you had that attitude I certainly wouldn’t offer up one of my horses for you to enjoy.

If someone loans you their car to run a errand and it has a flat tire, you wouldn’t have it fixed? You’d just hand back the keys and say, “not my problem?” Pardon my saying so, but that’s very poor manners…

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Jsalem;6367709]
But see, the horse wouldn’t have taken that bad step if you hadn’t been riding it. I would expect the rider to feel terrible and at least offer some assistance even if I didn’t take them up on it. Your attitude, “too darn bad” would be a real problem for me. If I knew you had that attitude I certainly wouldn’t offer up one of my horses for you to enjoy.

If someone loans you their car to run a errand and it has a flat tire, you wouldn’t have it fixed? You’d just hand back the keys and say, “not my problem?” Pardon my saying so, but that’s very poor manners…[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I don’t have thousands of dollars to pay for someone else’s horse.

[Jsalem]

But you expect someone else to foot the bill if the horse incurs a vet bill while you’re riding it? I know it’s a tricky situation, but you should at least feel some sort of responsibility. Wow…

[Ponyclubrocks]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;6367235]
Just wondering, would any of you expect the rider to be responsible to pay for a vet bill if your horse was injured during a lesson?

Like really, unless they were jumping 4’ when you told them no jumping, I really don’t get how you would put the blame on the rider.

If I was paying to ride a horse, and it came up lame during the lesson, there’s no way in hell I would be paying the vet bill![/QUOTE]

No, I would not expect them to pay a vet bill. They are only riding under the supervision of my trainer and if something happens to my horse in that circumstance, whose to say it wouldn’t have happened with me in the saddle, or my trainer for that matter. sometimes sh*t happens.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Jsalem;6368275]
But you expect someone else to foot the bill if the horse incurs a vet bill while you’re riding it? I know it’s a tricky situation, but you should at least feel some sort of responsibility. Wow…[/QUOTE]

Honestly, if an accident happened that wasn’t my fault, I wouldn’t feel responsible to pay the bill. It’s not my horse.

Any time to you ask a horse to do anything, there’s a risk it could get hurt. If you don’t want any type of risk, don’t let anyone ride it. The owner is assuming the risk by allowing the horse to be ridden.

Good grief, if a horse drops dead under you, would you feel responsible to replace the horse? Or if someone was riding your horse, and it dropped dead, would you expect that of them? Why or why not?

[Jsalem]

Saultgirl sounds young, so I really shouldn’t let the attitude bother me. It’s the attitude that I don’t care for. Honestly, if someone were riding my horse and the horse, say, stepped on a clip, here’s what I would expect: I would expect the rider to go into the barn and soak the foot instead of sticking the horse in a stall and grabbing a replacement horse to ride. I would expect them to at least ask “is there anything else I can do?”, perhaps even offer to soak the foot the next day. I wouldn’t expect them to pay for a vet call if the horse abscessed. It’s called horsemanship. It’s called putting the horse first. It’s called being respectful and appreciative of the opportunity to ride someone’s valuable animal.

So to the original question, I do believe the OP should be compensated for the use of her horse in lessons whether the BO offers a discount on board or the rider compensates her directly. Depending on the prices in her area, $10-$25 per lesson sounds about right. A privately owned horse is often better quality than your typical bored, sour lesson horse, so if the cost of the lesson ends up higher because the rider pays for the lesson and then pays a fee for the horse, that still seems fair to me.

I’m not in favor of “giving” away rides. It’s usually kids that want those extras. I think they need to learn to appreciate the value and the best way to do that is to put a number on it. They can often earn the privilege over time by demonstrating their good horsemanship.

I have scores of youngsters in my barn that would love extra rides on nice, client owned horses. I’m very selective about who gets the privilege. The kids earn the privilege a little over time. I carefully watch how they groom before and after, how mindfully they ride the horse. Believe me, the ones who slap the tack on, work without a nice warmup and cool down, fail to notice a fat leg and/or fail to put the horse and tack away properly- their opportunites dry up. Saultgirl’s attitude (“hell no, it’s not my problem”"- she wouldn’t be earning any priviliges in my barn.

[enjoytheride]

I’m an adult and I agreee with Salut. I would NEVER expect to pay for vet bills on a horse I used in lessons and I would NEVER ride with someone who had that requirement. That would be the responsiblity of the owner of the horse/bo/trainer who understands the risk of using their horse for lessons.

I don’t think anyone said anything about chucking an injured horse in a stall and getting on the next horse but I’m not sure I would expect most lesson students to understand the care of an injury like stepping on a clip and I would want the trainer to handle that.

It’s a different matter if I were leasing the horse.

[Jsalem]

We’re not talking about a “lesson horse”. Horse in question is a privately owned horse. OP is asking whether she should ask for compensation for a child using her horse in lessons. Family of said child declines to part lease horse. So I think the discussion of “responsibility” is a valid one.

[enjoytheride]

The owner of the horse would get compensation from the instructor. So the responsiblity of lesson horse injury relies on either the owner or the person employing the horse in lessons.

[Jsalem]

Yes, and the student would bear that increased cost. So OP is financially compensated for the use of the horse. That compensation might be used to pay for a vet bill.

This discussion is a good example of why compensation is necessary and appropriate.

[enjoytheride]

How would the student bear the cost? The student is only out the price of a lesson.

The instructor would be the one partial leasing the horse for lessons and they would bear costs including any sort of discussion about compensation for injury during a lesson.

I’ve ridden plenty of horses in lessons that the owner was letting the instructor use for some sort of reduce board deal and I never paid more for a lesson on one of them then a horse owned by the instructor. I have NEVER heard of a student paying more for a lesson on a horse leased by an instructor for use in lessons.

[Jsalem]

It really depends on the situation, but theoretically the cost could (and probably should) be passed on the student. It sounds like the student in question likes this particular horse but doesn’t want to pay to lease it.

If the cost of a regular lesson is $50 with say $25 going to instructor and $25 going to the “farm”- part of the farm fee goes towards farm costs (utilities, insurance, upkeep as well as lesson horse costs). If the OP wants $25 for the use of her private (and possibly better quality) horse, that lesson should cost the student more than the $50. Possibly as much as $75 because the existing lesson string still incurs the same costs. I’ve heard of lesson prices being one price if you own your own horse and an additional cost for the use of a lesson horse.

Now some farms might not pass on the cost to the student. I sometimes “borrow” a client pony for hippotherapy and credit the owner. I don’t have enough business to warrant keeping a full time extra pony so it actually helps me. I absorb that cost, but I sure could make a good arguement for passing it on to the “customer!”

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Jsalem;6368584]
Saultgirl sounds young, so I really shouldn’t let the attitude bother me. It’s the attitude that I don’t care for. Honestly, if someone were riding my horse and the horse, say, stepped on a clip, here’s what I would expect: I would expect the rider to go into the barn and soak the foot instead of sticking the horse in a stall and grabbing a replacement horse to ride. I would expect them to at least ask “is there anything else I can do?”, perhaps even offer to soak the foot the next day. I wouldn’t expect them to pay for a vet call if the horse abscessed. It’s called horsemanship. It’s called putting the horse first. It’s called being respectful and appreciative of the opportunity to ride someone’s valuable animal.

So to the original question, I do believe the OP should be compensated for the use of her horse in lessons whether the BO offers a discount on board or the rider compensates her directly. Depending on the prices in her area, $10-$25 per lesson sounds about right. A privately owned horse is often better quality than your typical bored, sour lesson horse, so if the cost of the lesson ends up higher because the rider pays for the lesson and then pays a fee for the horse, that still seems fair to me.

I’m not in favor of “giving” away rides. It’s usually kids that want those extras. I think they need to learn to appreciate the value and the best way to do that is to put a number on it. They can often earn the privilege over time by demonstrating their good horsemanship.

I have scores of youngsters in my barn that would love extra rides on nice, client owned horses. I’m very selective about who gets the privilege. The kids earn the privilege a little over time. I carefully watch how they groom before and after, how mindfully they ride the horse. Believe me, the ones who slap the tack on, work without a nice warmup and cool down, fail to notice a fat leg and/or fail to put the horse and tack away properly- their opportunites dry up. Saultgirl’s attitude (“hell no, it’s not my problem”"- she wouldn’t be earning any priviliges in my barn.[/QUOTE]

Well, I am young, at 29, but I can tell you I have had the privilege of riding many nice, privately owned horses in my younger years, because I have always been diligent, reliable, and trustworthy. It’s unfortunate that you got the impression that because I wouldn’t pay the bills in the event of an accident, that I would be careless or neglectful.

Horses being used by barn owners in lessons need to be covered under a commercial insurance policy.

Horses being lent out by private owners to specific riders for use in lessons need to be covered by the owner’s insurance, or the owner must be prepared to cover any loss.

[Ember]

As an owner who full leases one horse and is currently half leasing my other mare I would not expect my half leasor to pay if my mare came up lame during a ride. Unless, of course, she was doing something grossly negligent. I certainly don’t expect that to happen and I screened leasors carefully.

Both mares have contracts and both have insurance. The mare that is full leased, her leasor is responsible for vet bills and insurance. I half lease my other mare for a flat fee, half her expenses.

If I were to let someone ride one of my horses for free, which I have done in the past, I certainly wouldn’t expect them to pay if the horse came up lame. If it’s a concern, you should have insurance.

[ACMEeventing]

As often happens on COTH, this thread has begun the derail process.

OP, if you are still listening:

I’m from the camp that every situation calls for it’s own solution.

I can’t count number of times growing up that I traded anything and everything I could for riding privileges - babysitting, braiding, mucking. I know we live in a litigious society and everyone is out to make a buck, BUT, if your horse is otherwise unoccupied and is benefiting from this girl bathing, handling, riding, and showing affection to it then maybe you could agree to farrier bills or tack cleaning or some other necessity that is within the parents’ budget.

I don’t know your particular situation, it might be that she is a spoiled brat who can afford anything or it might be that you are the chance she has to learn the generosity of others and your mare gets to enjoy the benefits.

Let us know how it ends

[CHT]

I teach lessons, and have used a boarder’s horse for lessons for a few reasons:

1. Owner didn’t have time to ride the horse so wanted me to use it once or twice a week in lessons with an equally, or more advanced rider. If owner suddenly had time to ride, I would lose the horse, so couldn’t actually add students to my program based on this horse, and nor was this horse nicer than my average lesson horse. In this instance, owner did NOT receive compensation, and when they thought that they should, I stopped using their horse. (using this horse wasn’t adding to my bottom line, so why would I pay to use it?)

2. Owner doesn’t have time to ride, but is willing to commit to me using the horse fairly regularly. i reduce on a per lesson basis, although really the owner is just happy to feel less neglectful of her horse when life gets busy. I make sure horse is available if she wants to show. (horse is nice, so adds value to my program)

3. Owner lives out of town and rides only a few times a year. Horse isn’t very useful, but I found a student willing to look after horse and pay my 1/3 lease rate, and I use the horse once and a while for lessons outside of that if I am desperate. I provide most of the tack. Owner receives 1/3 reduction in board and I cover farrier, blanket washing and deworming. Owner pays all vet.

Three situations that I have worked out uniquely depending on the benefit.

In none of the above cases would I expect the lesson student to cover vet expenses directly, or provide care should horse get hurt when they are riding it.