Did she share her water with him?
I’ve had the experience of raising & taming wild PMU weanlings. Born on the range in Alberta, Canada and unhandled, un-imprinted and terrified of humans and touch.
When they first arrived and for weeks; you could NOT look directly at them if you approached them. Had to look to the side. If you did; they would panic and run away. Had to gradually accustom them to this. And even could not stare or look long or directly at them for awhile. Had to approach indirectly, off to the side, looking elsewhere. Remember; predators stare intently at their prey and horses are prey animals. With taming; we desentisize them to all kinds of things that are against their nature. Ditto with training.
Fast forward to affectionate, touch loving horses who nicker when I look at them!
I also learned that sometimes horses who are hard to catch in a pasture can be caught easier if you don’t approach directly or look/stare at them directly as you approach. Walk up to them about 20 feet away and look at them from the side/intermittently; no long stares. It lowers their anxiety. I had one I always had to catch this way. If I held a carrot, looked elsewhere, talked to him and looked “non threatening” then he’d come to me. Carrots have magical powers!! :winkgrin:
[QUOTE=right horse at the right time;7850143]
My friend’s horse was CLEARLY trying to communicate with her, and he barely knows her. She’s ridden him about 3 times and hasn’t spent tons of time with him yet.
I’ve read the different theories on eye contact, and I’m not sure what I believe. I do think it varies horse to horse, but would love other opinions.[/QUOTE]
I want your friend’s horse. I just laid my heart horse of 24 years to rest. He was 27 and was just like what you describe — from the moment I brought him home.
I could share stories that would make some folks reading this thread think I should be hauled away.
There are exceptional horses in this life - they don’t come along that often. I’ve been paying for my own horses since I was 12, 55+ years to be exact. I’ve had and still have some very savvy/good thinking/look them in the eye horses but, my heart horse was special.
IMHO, your friend should allow an open communication with that horse. Had my horse looked at my water bottle, I would have asked him if he wanted some. He got really good at sticking his tongue out, if he wanted to drink from my water bottle.
I always encourage a horse to develop their mentality. It amazes me how so many folks call their horse their “baby” yet they treat it like the machine it is not.
That said, my horse was the alpha dominant leader yet never over-stepped his bounds with humans.
He was born knowing right from wrong and knowing how to get along with people - even the stupid ones. He used to keep those types away from him by showing them the whites of his eyes so they would be “very afraid”. It didn’t help that I encouraged that:) 
Eye contact seems to matter to both of my horses, but they are opposites.
My gelding hates direct eye contact. This could be due to his history before me – we don’t know anything about what happened to him prior to the rescue I picked him up at, but there were quite a few signs he may have been man-handled or abused in some way. Anyway, back to the eyes, I always look at his nostrils/muzzle and never higher if I can help it. I tested his “boundaries” long ago and that is where he’s comfortable with me gazing. If people make eye contact with him, he gets very tense/rigid, his head goes up, the eyes get bigger – obviously it bothers him.
My mare, on the other hand, sounds just like OP’s horse. She’s extremely interactive, and doesn’t mind a bit if I look her in the eye. She seeks eye contact at times when she’s trying to get my attention, and also expresses what she wants by looking at the thing, looking at me, looking at the thing, looking at me… You never have to guess what she’s feeling – she’s so expressive!
That would suggest that horses are sensitive to the gaze direction of predators (which would include humans until proved otherwise). This would make a lot of sense from a survival point of view.
However, the question remains why horses would be particularly sensitive to being looked at in the eye, compared to other parts of the body. Do wolves, mountain lions etc. look horses in the eye? Why would they need or want to?
Thanks for all of the really cute stories!
[QUOTE=HungarianHippo;7851025]
Have to say I’ve never heard about eye contact itself being bad/good/threat. Is the concern that a horse making direct eye contact is asserting itself in the hierarchy?
I see it as part of the whole suite of communication, and I’d put 95% emphasis on the other signs-- posture, tension, ears, use of personal space, etc. before worrying about eye contact. My mare is super people-oriented and makes direct eye contact with me all day long-- watches me while I work around the barnyard, looks at me whenever I’m near her head (whuffling into my face), even stands at the fenceline looking into the house. So I don’t see the direct eye contact as meaningful except to indicate she’s people-oriented. And when we were out on an adventure not too long ago (an 8mi walk away from the farm) that she was not sure of, her tension was crazy high, but the visual connection was even stronger-- she just had her eyes and ear glued to me the whole time to gain reassurance.
I consider it completely benign, absent any other signals of testing dominance.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I’ve read quite a bit with very conflicting opinions about eye contact, not just whether it is good or bad, but also whether it is meaningful. Some posters in the thread have touched on or described all of these points and it all makes sense to me.
You bring up an interesting point about your horse looking at you to be reassured. Mine is half TB and has that STOP AND STARE giraffe look that I’m sure many horses do but I’ve heard described as a typical TB stare. I could pull the bit through his mouth and he would simply open his mouth and let it slide through, cooperating while still looking at what HE wants to look at. He is obedient but also quite looky and very much independent and not herd bound, etc. I need to add leg and really get his focus back when he does this (when I’m on him). Otherwise I do tend to establish eye contact with him if I’m on the ground, and it does work well.
My horse will also do something I find pretty funny…I can tell that he does get exasperated with me sometimes. He has, in lessons, turned and looked at my trainer when I’ve done something wrong. It’s pretty funny, and it’s very obvious that he is looking at him to do something, not looking at something scary, etc. His ears aren’t pricked forward, it’s more like, “come on, seriously, make her stop this.” We laugh every time. It’s usually very well timed and I’m convinced that he is trying to communicate with my trainer, with whom he is very close as well.
Interesting - I had totally forgotten that their eyes don’t work the same way ours do - very interesting.
I do feel like mine can look “about” me, but I do feel like he also looks AT me, in my eyes.
I will pay closer attention when I see him.
[QUOTE=Ajierene;7851843]I don’t think ‘eye contact’ in prey animals is the same as predator animals. Predators have their eyes at the front of their head. This gives them better depth perception and ability to see directly infront of them, while loosing some range of vision.
Prey animals have eyes on the side of their head. This gives them a much broader range of vision, while loosing some depth perception and not being able to see infront of them.
So, if you are on the side of a horse, his one eye is looking at you, but his other eye is looking elsewhere. It is not the same focused eye contact as a dog. Even if you are standing infront of him enough that he may see you with both eyes, he is not in the habit of focusing on something as intently as a dog would.
A dog will focus on the prey and get what one might call tunnel vision. A horse will always be looking around a bit - never know where that wily predator is. So eye contact does not communicate the same to dogs as it does to horses.
My filly was drying off after a ride yesterday and she had her head out of the stall almost the entire time. Ears pricked, looking at me - but she was just intent on what was going on and what her person was doing. Eye contact or not, she had the same focus. If I have a treat in my hand, she will have the same focus on my movements whether or not there is eye contact. Horses will focus more on just movements, dogs will take eye contact into much closer consideration.
There is actually an interesting study that showed dogs understand human nonverbals much better than any other animal - cats, chimpanzees and I believe birds - were tested against dogs. Dogs understand you pointing at something to get it, understand different arm motions and body postures. Chimpanzees pretty much did not understand at all and cats only rarely understood.[/QUOTE]
Very interesting - I’m learning so much from this thread!
I wonder if there is a YouTube or other video that simulates what a horse sees. I can’t do YouTube where I am but will look tonight.
My dog for sure understands pointing. I don’t remember trying it with my horse. I know I’ve told him to move over (cleaning stall, in cross-ties, etc.), but that’s very different. The dog has more freedom - I can tell him “get your bone, it’s in the kitchen,” but the horse doesn’t have the same liberties :).
[QUOTE=BEARCAT;7852076]Very interesting topic indeed.
I’ve had the privilege to work with a great Liberty trainer and one of the very first lessons is teaching the horse NOT to look at you with both eyes. The reasoning is that later, you will be asking the horse for either one eye or the other so as to control them from a distance. I watch her work many horses, and that is a tough concept for them. Some are pretty adamant they want to look with both eyes and get bothered by not being able to. I think it also teaches them a great deal of self control, and to listen to the trainer for instructions.
Here is a short video of my horse learning the basics (this wasn’t his first session so he was already no longer trying to turn his head, but you do have to manage it for a while.)
http://youtu.be/qTl9X2H8Ioc[/QUOTE]
I can’t wait to watch this! I wonder how depth perception works for horses if they can’t look at someone with both eyes. I wonder if they try to look with both eyes in order to gauge depth perception.
If I remember correctly, she drank it all :). But she immediately took him out of the arena and back to the barn to take care of him. But she’s definitely the kind of owner who would share for sure.
[QUOTE=wateryglen;7852993]I’ve had the experience of raising & taming wild PMU weanlings. Born on the range in Alberta, Canada and unhandled, un-imprinted and terrified of humans and touch.
When they first arrived and for weeks; you could NOT look directly at them if you approached them. Had to look to the side. If you did; they would panic and run away. Had to gradually accustom them to this. And even could not stare or look long or directly at them for awhile. Had to approach indirectly, off to the side, looking elsewhere. Remember; predators stare intently at their prey and horses are prey animals. With taming; we desentisize them to all kinds of things that are against their nature. Ditto with training.
Fast forward to affectionate, touch loving horses who nicker when I look at them!
I also learned that sometimes horses who are hard to catch in a pasture can be caught easier if you don’t approach directly or look/stare at them directly as you approach. Walk up to them about 20 feet away and look at them from the side/intermittently; no long stares. It lowers their anxiety. I had one I always had to catch this way. If I held a carrot, looked elsewhere, talked to him and looked “non threatening” then he’d come to me. Carrots have magical powers!! :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]
INTERESTING - my boy is PMU from Saskatchewan, out in the incredibly huge pasture just as you say. He had a wonderful upbringing with very experienced, kind but firm horse women, and he has always been well loved. Next time I talk to them I’ll find out how he was as a baby if they remember! He has always been sweet and with lots of personality, so I’m curious to hear their responses.
[QUOTE=walkinthewalk;7853048]I want your friend’s horse. I just laid my heart horse of 24 years to rest. He was 27 and was just like what you describe — from the moment I brought him home.
I could share stories that would make some folks reading this thread think I should be hauled away.
There are exceptional horses in this life - they don’t come along that often. I’ve been paying for my own horses since I was 12, 55+ years to be exact. I’ve had and still have some very savvy/good thinking/look them in the eye horses but, my heart horse was special.
IMHO, your friend should allow an open communication with that horse. Had my horse looked at my water bottle, I would have asked him if he wanted some. He got really good at sticking his tongue out, if he wanted to drink from my water bottle.
I always encourage a horse to develop their mentality. It amazes me how so many folks call their horse their “baby” yet they treat it like the machine it is not.
That said, my horse was the alpha dominant leader yet never over-stepped his bounds with humans.
He was born knowing right from wrong and knowing how to get along with people - even the stupid ones. He used to keep those types away from him by showing them the whites of his eyes so they would be “very afraid”. It didn’t help that I encouraged that:) :)[/QUOTE]
I’m so sorry for your loss - and 24 years with you?? How incredibly wonderful!! I’m with you in the “hauled away” stories. There are some I don’t share here for the same reason :). I believe you. I have my heart horse as well. And if you ever find yourself out west, feel free to have cuddle time with mine. I’m so sorry for your loss.
We have very similar horses (my heart horse to your heart horse) - mine is for sure an alpha horse, and extremely dominant, but also does not overstep his bounds with people. But horses? Don’t get near him unless you’re above him in the pecking order, and so far that’s been one stallion, one FEI warmblood whom he seems to have a crush on, and one non-dominant, very sweet horse also a big warmblood who doesn’t appear threatening or interested in mine. The others? Not a chance.
Mine is very sweet to people - wary around tiny kids, but he’s not exposed to them much at all. He doesn’t seem to be a fan of crying babies. But loud, bossy people who might yank him around? He doesn’t like that at all.
[QUOTE=ClassyRide;7853128]Eye contact seems to matter to both of my horses, but they are opposites.
My gelding hates direct eye contact. This could be due to his history before me – we don’t know anything about what happened to him prior to the rescue I picked him up at, but there were quite a few signs he may have been man-handled or abused in some way. Anyway, back to the eyes, I always look at his nostrils/muzzle and never higher if I can help it. I tested his “boundaries” long ago and that is where he’s comfortable with me gazing. If people make eye contact with him, he gets very tense/rigid, his head goes up, the eyes get bigger – obviously it bothers him.
My mare, on the other hand, sounds just like OP’s horse. She’s extremely interactive, and doesn’t mind a bit if I look her in the eye. She seeks eye contact at times when she’s trying to get my attention, and also expresses what she wants by looking at the thing, looking at me, looking at the thing, looking at me… You never have to guess what she’s feeling – she’s so expressive![/QUOTE]
Also very interesting - and you respect both of them - and they let you know how they want their communication.
I wonder what would happen if you tried to work with your gelding like was discussed above with the PMU babies.
[QUOTE=fburton;7853427]That would suggest that horses are sensitive to the gaze direction of predators (which would include humans until proved otherwise). This would make a lot of sense from a survival point of view.
However, the question remains why horses would be particularly sensitive to being looked at in the eye, compared to other parts of the body. Do wolves, mountain lions etc. look horses in the eye? Why would they need or want to?[/QUOTE]
Maybe it has something to do with whom they view as a predator? Perhaps they switch over at some point and don’t view humans as a predator? I know mine runs to me when he sees me, and if I’m in his stall, he wants to be close, be scratched, have his head held and rubbed. If I sit in a chair, he puts his head in my lap and I scratch it and rub his ears and generally act as his personal masseuse, which let’s face it, I am, but I also provide food, etc., and training, so I’m not sure he views me as predator. When someone else is in his stall, it’s different, though.
Lots to think about and thanks for all of the responses!
Paul McGreevy showed a video at an Equine Behaviour Forum meeting that a colleague Alison Harman had made showing the different field of view and colour perception of a horse approaching a showjump. Maybe it’s available online somewhere. Such a simulation is useful in demonstrating to people how different a horse’s view of the world is, and therefore getting them to think about how they might improve their management and riding - e.g. by allowing a horse to look at jumps rather than fixing his head in a position that prevents this. Unfortunately, they are just simulations and we will never know what it is actually like to see as a horse does - what colours look like, or even the shape of field of view as seen by the horse.
I wonder how depth perception works for horses if they can’t look at someone with both eyes. I wonder if they try to look with both eyes in order to gauge depth perception.
Horse do have limited binocular vision (the exact amount depending on the breed of horse and shape of the head). This was researched by Timney et al. a while back:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042698998002764
[QUOTE=fburton;7853550]
Paul McGreevy showed a video at an Equine Behaviour Forum meeting that a colleague Alison Harman had made showing the different field of view and colour perception of a horse approaching a showjump. Maybe it’s available online somewhere. Such a simulation is useful in demonstrating to people how different a horse’s view of the world is, and therefore getting them to think about how they might improve their management and riding - e.g. by allowing a horse to look at jumps rather than fixing his head in a position that prevents this. Unfortunately, they are just simulations and we will never know what it is actually like to see as a horse does - what colours look like, or even the shape of field of view as seen by the horse.
Horse do have limited binocular vision (the exact amount depending on the breed of horse and shape of the head). This was researched by Timney et al. a while back:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042698998002764[/QUOTE]
Very cool - although much more binocular vision than believed, I think, based on this admittedly very tiny (n=2) experiment.
I found this interesting too:
“Although horses certainly have the ability to move their eyes, there is no information on whether they have an effective vergence system. If their vergence is limited then, in principle, they could code absolute distance by comparing the positions of the images in the two eyes (cf. Collett & Harkness, 1982). The very large interocular separation in horses could make this an effective cue. However, nothing is known about receptive field disparities in the equine eye so it is uncertain whether they could use such a mechanism.”
I have some eye issues and have very limited depth perception/convergence, which I have apparently always had or developed as a young child after some type of injury that no one remembers.
I had no idea, don’t get into car wrecks, didn’t need glasses, etc. Now that I’m ahem older than 40, my one eye is starting to become farsighted, so I whereas I had one nearsighted and one farsighted eye, I’m losing my near vision in the other eye. Before, I would use one eye for near, one eye for far, so I had no convergence really. I saw a specialist a few years back and while I have so far refused surgery, I did get prism glasses. I crashed into everything, felt like I was on a total psychedelic trip, etc. I had never experienced depth perception before so while it was corrected with the glasses, I wasn’t used to it. I tried for several months to adjust and I could never do it.
So I can see how animals can survive ok with monocular vision.
I have observed that if you are approaching a group of horses, and need to get behind them, it is best not to look at them as you go by. They then stay in place, and once you are around behind them, you can look at them and move them in the direction you came from.
When meeting a new dog - some will be so uncomfortable with eye contact they may become aggressive or bark…also, when petting better to come up under the chin of a strange dog for a scratch rather than a pat, pat, pat o the head from above.
Collies/sheep dogs do eye contact, tho.
https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/112525755@N05/15159525044/
When my horse thinks I’m being dense and not paying sufficient attention to what her eyes are saying, she gets all up in my business with her snout so I can’t miss the eyes.
It’s like she’s saying, “Do you need glasses, or remedial help? Where’s the treat?”
She had to work to get this pose going considering I was standing facing the middle of her neck on a stool! The next time she thought she need another treat for being so good, she put her chin on my shoulder like, “It’s going to take you a while to catch on so I’ll just rest my head here while I STARE at you!!!”
[QUOTE=netg;7850508]
I agree that it depends on the horse, just like with dogs. Some are being dominant, some just kind of stare, and some communicate more than others.
And some keep bowing at you in hopes you’ll give them another treat… :lol:[/QUOTE]
This “superstitious behavior” really persists. I take the mare through a series of “carrot stretches” when I turn her out. Very simple, 3 or 4 on each side. Every once in a great while, I’ll do a second round… so sometimes after we’ve done one round, she keeps repeating the stretches.
And if I go from her head to her flank for some reason when she is turned out, she will often turn her head to her flank because that is the first stretch we do.
Both of the above, she will only do if she knows I have a treat somewhere.
I swear she gets mad when I don’t treat her for her “extra” behavior.
As for eye contact, I think it’s mostly something I do when she is distracted by something and I want her attention back – and when correcting her I “grow tall” and stare right at her.
This is interesting. My current horse is very into eye contact. 99% of the time he will come to me when I call him out in the field and he always walks (or trots or gallops) up to me making eye contact the entire time. If he is free and I want to put his halter on or pat him, he prefers me coming straight at him. If I approach him from the side or try to pat him on the side, he gets a bit rowdy and turns to face me. When he wants something … he stares me down until I bring him in, feed him, or do whatever he thinks he needs (who’s training whom?).
This horse is a pretty alpha personality and is very engaged. He notices everything – from the new paint color on the jumps to the neighbor ½ mile away walking to their car. He is also not very stoic and lets you know how he feels about whatever is going on in the moment. We constantly work with him to reinforce our boss status with him both on the ground and in the tack. I think this is a bit of a show, because he can also be extremely insecure.
When he gets nervous, say at a show or when a new person is working with him, he gets a bit of a worried look and constantly touches me with his nose, as if he his looking to me for assurance. A few weeks ago, for example, someone who handles him daily and has ridden him a bit in the past, was riding him. For some reason, he was very unsure of her and he kept looking at me and kept trying to walk toward me. Once she let him know she was in charge and was going to be fair, he stopped looking to me.
These are just my observations. I don’t really have answers about why he does it or whether it is a good, bad or indifferent aspect of his personality.
When I walk out in the field, my own horses (that I ride) pick their heads up, catch my eye, and somewhat competitively say “Hi!” with a perky little flip of their tails as if saying, take me! Me! ME! It’s very cute.
…and once both eyes are centred on you, they will let you go up to them - with halter, etc. You have 'em once that happens.
Sylvia Loch says to always look a horse in the eye b/f you get on, & sort of telepathically ask permission to sit on his back. She was riding a student’s horse at a clinic & commented that it was an intimate/invasive thing to climb up there without doing this first
I saw this all on youtube or something. I would like to see SL in person.
[QUOTE=Hippolyta;7856207]
Sylvia Loch says to always look a horse in the eye b/f you get on, & sort of telepathically ask permission to sit on his back. She was riding a student’s horse at a clinic & commented that it was an intimate/invasive thing to climb up there without doing this first
I saw this all on youtube or something. I would like to see SL in person.[/QUOTE]
Have you read her books? Marvelous stuff, with equally marvelous pictures of her riding and training mostly Iberians. One of the best exponents of the French/Portuguese haute ecole tradition out there. You MUST read her! :yes:
My Arab did something to me, I was on a hill not paying attention to me and he pushed me oh so lightly the back, and I fell gently over. I got up looked him in the eye and his eyes were dancing in the way one does when laughing.
I swear he was laughing. I broke out laughing too.
He was smart and funny and had a wonderful work ethic under saddle. But he was one to have fun around the barm.
[QUOTE=Lady Eboshi;7856369]
Have you read her books? Marvelous stuff, with equally marvelous pictures of her riding and training mostly Iberians. One of the best exponents of the French/Portuguese haute ecole tradition out there. You MUST read her! :yes:[/QUOTE]
I think the v. first dressage book I had was SL. Given to be by my camp counselor!
My gelding got me the first time I rode him by looking directly, intently, questioningly into my eyes when he was a lesson horse still. There was something about that look. I knew then that he would be mine. And the intent gaze is still there, but it’s usually soft and adoring, rather than questioning. He’s a bit bold and direct with people, very people-oriented and friendly. He’ll be in your pocket all the time.
He will often look at something and back to me intently. He will let me know his blanket preference, when I wrap his leg wrong, etc.
My mare will sometimes avert her eyes if I look at her too intently from a close distance. I find it pretty odd, as she shows her affection in other ways. She’s a little shy and nervous.
