Horses Working at Liberty with Pinned Ears

To me, the horse (Templado) in that photo looks like he’s got his ear turned to Pignon, and his eye looks quite open and tuned in, but soft. I liked the Pignon video endlessclimb posted, as well. And the horse in the first video posted by the OP, the short tiktok, really looked more listening than annoyed, to me. But of course it was a very short snippet.

All that said, in most of the examples posted here, the horses looked various degrees of annoyed to pissed.

Great reminders to be sure to tune in and check if the horse is really viewing training like we think they are. Does Dobbin really enjoy liberty/groundwork/lunging/what-have-you and is it producing positive things for his training or conditioning, or does Tory Trainer just think he loves it?

Tack was designed to for the rider to communicate with the horse, wasn’t it? (as well as stay on, re: the saddle) So Jackie’s point seems to make exquisite sense to me, insofar as horses would respond well to clearer communication, and be happy not to have to try so hard to understand what is being asked. Not sure I agree that it’s liking to be compelled, but rather liking clarity and predictability.

What a great thread!

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Horses are herd animals. They get anxious if they don’t know where they stand in the hierarchy. Most of them want a leader who they can trust who will protect them and tell them what to do.

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This is a timely thread for me as I just came across a liberty clip the other day that honestly made me a little uncomfortable.

Obviously its raining which probably is contributing to horse’s discomfort but really made me think about the extent to which liberty is necessarily confidence-building for horses when the handler is so liberal with using the whip up close and rather aggressively

See that’s an interesting reaction and I have to assume you don’t do liberty?

She doesn’t touch the horse at all with the whip and it is not being used as an aversive. Just as a cue. In Spanish Walk the horse has learned to lift his knees to tap the whip.

It’s only in our eyes that a whip is punishment. You can use it as a cue that does not connote punishment to the horse.

For my trick Paint mare, cue to lie down is to drag the string of a longe line over her back. She drops down and smiles for a treat. This cue emerged organically. My clicker mentor at the time said I should try to switch the cue because using a whip as a cue “would look bad” to the audience when we performed. I never changed it, couldn’t be bothered trying to find a cue that would be as safe, as clear, and not likely to be misinterpreted at the wrong moment.

My project Lusi mare was freaked about longe whips when I started with her. Now she knows they are harmless. I will hit the ground with a whip to get her to move out on the circle, part of “big” body language. But she loves to come in and do shoulder in up close with the whip. Also I can use the whip as a target and get her to follow it

Both will lift their front legs towards the whip.

Anyhow from your reaction I get why my clicker mentor said whips “give the wrong impression” but if you watch carefully you will see they are just cues like using your hand. And you don’t get that kind of cue by using the whip as punishment.

Note that this Lusitano stallion in your video is doing some high concentration dressage moves at liberty. He’s got collection and focus and listening ears, because those moves require focus and positive tension.

I feel like horses under saddle may have ears forward alertly because they are most interested in what’s ahead, though they do flick back to the rider in complicated work. But in upclose liberty work the main focus is on the handler, and depending on the relative position of horse and handler the ears could be sideways or back.

What you want to avoid is flattened snake ears. Ears flicking around to follow the trainer is what you want.

Also these Iberian stallions are way more expressive than most horses. They are on the Arab side of the expression spectrum. You’re going to get some head tossing and exuberance in the mix.

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Oh I’m certainly not under the impression that the whips are making contact, and I am of course not against a whip as a traditional aid (I ride with a dressage whip as many of us do!), I was just struck by how she really seemed to be up in his face with them, particularly when asking for the rear, and he doesn’t look thrilled.

But you are correct that I do not do liberty. I’ve been exposed to more and more via social media as folks have already discussed and there does seem to be a range in the expressions of the horses involved and the extent to which pressure is applied- this clip just seemed less than ideal to me, whether or not that reaction is warranted.

Part of using body language is to be up in their face at some points. I personally am not interested in teaching a horse to rear, and certainly not in my face! However, it is a crowd pleasing trick.

I will get in a horse’s face to back up. Start with a finger wagging and voice cue, step forward body language, poke the chest if they aren’t listening. If I’m coming into the stall with water, I don’t much care where their ears are, they need to move over!

The buckskin is clearly a Lusitano stallion (I saw a hint of testicles at one point to confirm). These horses come factory installed with the collection based bullfighting or dressage moves. I expect he rears very willingly!

Anyhow in liberty work it’s body language first, with a whip as pointer or voice cues for backup or clarity.

It’s still training, obviously. The horse still needs to obey you. But you don’t get the degree of cooperation seen in this video if the horse doesn’t think that all in all, it’s more fun to come play with you than to eat weeds over the arena fence.

For me there’s an open question in both the videos with the gray Andalusian stallion (French) and this buckskin Lusitano stallion. That is, how much of the performance shows the stallion challenging the handler, and how potentially dangerous is that? I like my mares :slight_smile: and while I’ve been around some stallions (lberian as it happens) I’ve never worked them and would be quite cautious if I did. I don’t want a horse at liberty chasing me (following sedately is good) or rearing in my face. Basically I don’t want to instil anything that would make general handling more difficult. But obviously if you want to do performance then you will choose a horse that shows liberty talent and figure out how “dangerous” you want your tricks to appear.

I feel like I’m going on and on in this thread, but now I realize I actually don’t get to discuss liberty at all in my real life. No one else is really doing it. Project Lusi mare basically taught herself. When I see local clinics they are super beginner and often taught by people who are getting less done than Project Mare does.

Thread has been a bit inspiring though in that I got into a bit of a maintenance holding pattern rut with her, and maybe I should be moving forward and consolidating some of our stuff.

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My horse looks super pissed when he voluntarily tries to lunge himself around me at liberty. I’m walking out to pick up poop or throw some hay, and he starts lunging himself. I rarely lunge, have never treated when I have, and I don’t do liberty work. It’s his way of playing, I guess. If I stand still, he lunges himself until he stops, faces me, and looks at me expectantly. If I walk away, he stands there with his ears pricked like, ‘where are you going?’ If I walk back, sometimes he wants to lick my hand, and his eyes glaze over with pleasure—he loves to lick. Or he starts lunging again, looking pissed. Is he pissed? Why would he be pissed? I don’t hit or yell at him. I’m not making him do anything. And why would he at the blink of an eye then be clearly not pissed? He seems to me to just play these little antics while I pick up poop in his pasture, and then he stands there with his ears pricked. So what is that?

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That’s a horse that wants to do liberty work with you!!

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I don’t see pinned ears in the tie Tok posted. Just really paying attention, horse looks pretty relaxed.

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I am surprised no one has mentioned Lorenzo…I don’t see pinned ears

This is the trailer to his DVD (4 min). In some scenes he has reins, in other scenes he is roman riding with no tack

And a 35 min amateur video of an exhibition…fast forward to ~10 min where he is roman riding 2 horses and controlling another 10 horses…12 horses total…over jumps.

I’ve thought a lot about this exact thing after I went to a R+ clinic with a friend and decided to learn more about it as a potential tool.

And my conclusion is…it depends. Horses are just as much individuals as we are. And it’s impossible to make a blanket statement of “they are all pissed off or hurting”. Sometimes they might be concentrating really hard on their person for cues which can make some horses looked POed. They might be putting in an extra effort (small circles are HARD). They might not actually want to play the game that day but know they will get a reward if they do so they suck it up and do it. They might be hurting. They might be frustrated that they are giving the answer but not getting a reward yet. The trainer’s job is to determine what it is.

I think of the difference between myself when I’m focused and my boyfriend. He is happy go lucky, like a dopey Labrador, and even if you interrupt him while he’s concentrating he’s still mellow. Me? I look angry while I’m concentrating, even if i love what I’m doing. And I get very pissed if I’m interrupted. I figure horses probably have differences like that as well.

Final note: my new guy looks pissed any time he is concentrating. It took me a bit to determine if he was actually upset or what. I finally figured out it’s just his focused face. At some point I think it just becomes a habit.

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Add me to the list of folks that have the general impression that liberty horses just look… miserable. The whole Roman riding thing has always been a turn off to me. They all seem to be asking WHY are we doing this?

The tiktok with the flailing whip and rearing, again, horse seems to be asking WHY am I having to spin around and dance while you just stand there swinging a whip at me?

With absolutely zero scientific evidence to back me up, my gut feeling is that these are not “partnerships” as the horse has been bred to understand them. For sure, one could ask WHY jump our horses around courses of sticks, but at least that has an endgoal: Get from Point A to Point B while safely negotiating any hurdles that arise, which is what we’ve bred them to do for eons. The battlefield moves of dressage- admittedly far removed now, had purpose. To keep man & beast alive, which binds man & beast on the most cellular of levels.

When you’re on their back at least you have some actual skin in the game. You and the horse are as one- quite literally. You work together towards a goal and pull (proportionately) equal weight in achieving it. We’ve deliberately bred for this understanding & acceptance in the horse.

But just standing around and making horses do tricks that aren’t gonna help you when Armageddon arrives and all the gas runs out (/h) just grates on me… admittedly for no real justifiable reason and it’s not something I’m particularly proud of because, in the end, I want human/horse relationships flourish…

but alas, grate on me it does.

(If it makes it any better, I feel the same way when hubs runs every. single. dog. he meets through a barrage of trick cues they may or may not know. Sit! Beg! Roll over! Shake! MY GOD man that I love dearly, just leave the poor beast alone.)

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Thank you all for the great discussion here! There are so many interesting and thought provoking points being made. Two posts that stood out to me were by @Jackie_Cochran and @Alterration. Both discussed that horses thrive on clear body language and cues, and try as we might, we humans are not always overly clear with our body language. I can certainly see how this could contribute to the confusion and annoyance of our horses when working at liberty (or any time, for that matter).

Prior to this discussion I had never considered how using tack likely greatly aids in our horses understanding of what is being asked of them. I also found the post about the trainer using a bit for a horse who was very accomplished in going bridleless fascinating! What a fantastic display of horsemanship.

I also really appreciate @Scribbler 's explanation of the Haflinger’s cue to lie down, and how that gave us some insight into how the horse was likely taught. As a person who has very limited exposure to Liberty, I never would have picked up on that on my own. Thank you Scribbler for sharing your knowledge on Liberty and some of the cues and training that go into it!

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In defense of trick training.

My Paint mare just loves loves loves clicker tricks. Her face lights up when we go into the arena on Obstacle Play night or into an obstacle ground work clinic. Even before I started clicker she loved standing on the circus box. Sometimes we do little tricks performance for kids (decorating a Christmas tree, going to sleep, waking up to play with her “new” bouncy ball) and she is so happy. She adores our annual open house. Her Pilates yoga ball lives in her runout and some days she greats me .by pushing it into her stall and standing there asking to play.

She has some pushy, pissy, dominant aspects to her personality but as soon as we are in clicker tricks or obstacles she becomes the happiest softest compliant horse. She wants to stop on the trails and smile for children. Or course there are treats involved. But the whole thing makes her so happy.
It’s not just for the tiny treats she gets. She really loves finding out other human beings are smart enough to learn cues and interact with her. She’s always wanted attention and now she has a way to get attention that makes everybody happy with her.

I have not found a way to logically use clicker much under saddle. But if we are having a pissy moment I can break the cycle by doing something like walk halt treat which changes the parameters.

All her tricks including lying down were taught by shaping existing behavior. She will play fetch, go get her bouncy ball with her nose, “dance” with her front feet if you stamp your feet, nod yes, smile and more things. She learns super fast now.

My coach did say this was the horse shed saddle up for the Apocalypse because she’s so brave on the roads and trails. So it’s not mutually exclusive!

Anyhow whether or not Paint mare was bred to be a clicker tricks clown, it’s her super power and she is so obviously happy when we do it. Also it’s helped with being girthy.

Project Lusitano mare had gone kind of feral when I stated working with her. She would run backwards and rear up if you tried to lead her away from other horses, pick up a foot, put on a bridle, or shake a longe whip. I started working with her during COVID when I was at my friend’s barn where I could let the horses into a coveted arena direct from the field. I brought in my mare and project .mare followed.

Project mare just picked up free longeing on voice commands immediately, I’m assuming she’d been longed earlier in life. I think I also longed her on a line a bit too. She loved going down trot poles which helped her be less rushy, and she loved all obstacles, including squeezing between a barrel and the wall. She wasn’t hard to catch or approach, just hard to work with. I taught her to stand on cue then follow me, back up, haunches over. I started taking her into the barn along with Paint mare when I saddles up and leaving her alone there eating while I rode to sort out being alone in the barn. Etc.

All along I wanted to actually ride this horse because she’s very talented. That hasn’t worked out yet. I haven’t given up yet, though. Anyhow, at our current barn I have areas I can free longe her, and again it’s her super power. When I’m.in the arena that borders the main path out of stables, and she’s galloping around me, I can call halt and then call her into the center of the arena to stand quietly when someone rides by, rather than have her spook their horse by running the fence which is what every single other horse there does in that turnout space.

We’ve also learned lateral work at liberty. She’s always trying to get in close to do lateral work (and get a treat).

Anyhow, again she is so engaged and happy and even inventive in liberty work that I have to say she likes it. She has way more energy than Paint mare and all the Iberian expressiveness though not to the extent of the stallions in the videos.

Anyhow with both these horses, I went down these paths because they were so clearly happy, engaged, inventive, and thinking when I worked on the ground. I didn’t have any goals other than experimenting.

As far as whether it’s “natural” I’d say ground work builds on how horses relate to each other, and it comes to them naturally. If you get on the wavelength of that individual horse.

I’d still rather be riding. But this stuff has been enriching when we aren’t riding or as an extra thing to do. And it helps the horses understand they can have a relationship on the ground with people.

Now I do not think that tricks and liberty are magickal. But I do think they are natural, and can add some fun to horse time. I don’t think everybody needs to do them, or indeed can do them. But they are very very helpful for understanding timing and cues. The only reason they look impressive is that most people haven’t figured out how to do this.

And maybe not all horses have the talent. When I look at my two, they have very different aptitude, and different approach to the work. I don’t have extensive experience with other horses. I do find other ammies struggle with timing and body language but I don’t know how much is the person and how much is the horse. If the horse doesn’t engage it would be hard to find the rhythm.

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Of course we all have opinions but how are you not impressed that the guy is working with 12 horses 10 of which are totally free?

Horses are herd animals. There is always a pecking order in the herd. I would say he is doing something “right” to mentally connect with those horses such that they are willing to follow his lead.

More than the ears , I don’t care for the expression on the horses face. Kind of looks like the horse would dearly love to put that young girl with the whip in her rightful place.

Maybe it is just me.

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I feel a bit like the liberty crowd is being hoisted by its own petard, as they say

A lot of liberty and clicker trainers get PR traction with a big self righteous push against “conventional training” and are very quick to pull out the simplified “how to read your horses face” to cherry pick photos or videos of unhappy horses in competition or bad training. Indeed this “campaign” can be a major part of their brand identity. By and large it’s this category of trainers who have flooded us with the diagrams and concepts of reading horses faces.

Now this can be done with subtlety or crudely. I mentioned on another thread that I am seeing more and more trolls online that jump on any IG or YT video that doesn’t show either a horse standing in a sunny field or a bridle less beach gallop. Everything else including horses in the snow, horses playing bitey face, horses in a stall, horses in tack, horses bucking in turnout, horses in competition, etc is attracting more “omg you are so cruel comments.” And the trolls are mirroring the language of the ground work trainers even when they don’t know what they are seeing.

Because there is an anti riding and certainly an anti competition subcurrent in many ground work promoters.

Then they self promote by saying that their groundwork horses are demonstrably happier with groundwork than riding. Because the main way they have taught us to read horse feelings is ears, we start looking at ears. But obviously we should also be looking at eyes, at face, at body posture, and at the degree of voluntary cooperation.

The grey Andie and buckskin Lusitano stallions are offering factory installed Iberian play moves. Even my half Lusi project mare will rear up in turnout and then spin 180 or 360 degrees without losing balance. My Paint is very handy for a big horse but she couldn’t do that. She has a spectacular buck though and can do a barrel quality turn in turnout! For a long time project mare’s default move under stress was to sit down, wave her hands in the air, and scream. Paint mare will buck, run into you with her shoulder, knock you into a ditch and bolt home. Fortunately neither do this much any more.

The stallion videos are absolutely capturing and building on behavior the horse is already offering. And the horses would not be up close with the handler if they didn’t want to play. My Paint mare will just lie down if you try to send her around on a low energy day.

I do think it’s worth considering how much of the performance draws on stallion play aggression, and whether that had risks for the handler. Obviously these handlers are good. But I wouldn’t be comfortable right now with that level of stallion vibes. But that’s another direction.

We have been taught by the ground work crowd that horses should have soft faces and forward ears at all times or else it’s Horse Abuse. But lo and behold, horses doing ground work, especially when they are concentrating, have a range of expression and their ears are on the handler. That’s just normal.

As an example of the language I mean, see link below. I don’t know exactly what this particular trainer does. Their personal narrative seems to be that they used to be a competition rider and engaged willingly in all kinds of cruel practices, but then saw the light and are now reward based or bitless or liberty or something. I don’t know anything more about them. But they are the most convenient example I have at hand of someone out there trashing 95 per cent of horse activities to promote their own image.

I didn’t think too much of this stuff until in the past year I started seeing more trolls turning up on IG and YT using this general language back at all kinds of innocuous videos.

I’m also kind of unimpressed by conversion narratives because I could recognize brutal behavior and training methods at 15, and I wonder why I should bother listening to people who are so new to the concept of being kind to horses.

Anyhow this FB is just some small backyard trainer, no idea if they have clients even. But their feed just seemed very representative of the rhetoric. While I don’t necessarily disagree with the basic ideas, I’m starting to think the language is counter productive and helps create impossible ideas of what handling horses looks like.

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This is such an interesting conversation and one that I’ve wondered about for years. I’ve personally known many horses who enjoyed what I would consider “trick training”. They are happy to do specific movements or short retrieval activities with a relaxed and happy demeanor. The movement based liberty work has always stumped me as to why some horses suddenly seem so deeply unhappy. I too have heard the “concentration” excuse but often the work amounts to 20m circles and maybe some working pirouettes or half steps. The ears glued to the head, snarling nostrils, and hard eyes would be absolute fodder for critique if there was a rider on their back. Probably not a universal explanation but I wonder if some of the horses that are highlighted in these videos were ones that were incompatible with under saddle work because of behavioral issues with an underlying pain component. Without a rider they will tolerate work but the expressions are a manifestation of the discomfort still being experienced?

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