Hot horse, 'faking' connection

I just started a partial lease on a 14 y/o TB gelding. He’s a very sensitive, hot horse who needs very little hand. I’ve only ridden him twice, and I’ve found that it’s hard to get him to track up and really relax over his topline. He’s very good at faking it! If I keep my hand quiet and steady, with very little weight, he’ll come down on the bit but I still don’t feel like he’s through behind back-to-front.

I’ve been reading Dr. Deb Bennett’s series on conformation, and she says a horse that is not truly using its muscles properly shows a toe-flicking action… it reminded me that the photos I’ve seen of him doing Prelim level [eventing] dressage tests… where he’s clearly not relaxed and is (no surprise) flicking his toe.

What sort of exercises can I do to sloooow his mind down (I swear he’s trying to predict what I’m going to ask him to do next) and help with relaxing his topline so I can work on getting him engaged?

To begin, I’d take him back to work on the longe line in Vienna reins.
And be patient. At 14, with prior training that’s allowed him to develop this “style”, it’s not going to be a quick or easy fix.

I’d also consider his diet, since some foods can contribute to a tight body and over-sensitive mind… and make sure he was getting plenty of turnout with opportunity to graze (a great natural stretcher).

Good luck!

The longe would be useful.

Under saddle I’d play with transitions between the gaits, and within the gaits. Serpentines are useful. I find that the continuous change in bend encourages horses to relax and come through.

You are very wise not to chase him with your hand. :yes:

Thanks! I’m actually going to suggest to the owner that she try some Magnesium Oxide, as it helps with muscle tightness – apparently a lot of TBs are deficient in this area.

Umm - it’s a TB. They’re notorious for the “I know what you want! I’ll do it for you, and I’ll do it before you even ask for it!” mentality. Don’t think you’re going to change that. Add that to the fact that he’s already 14, and you have your work cut out for you, in getting him to make a major change.

That said, it’s a huge plus that you’re already getting him to come to your hand, albeit inconsistently. Just keep riding him back to front, and be patient and steady in your connection, and he’ll come around. I’ve found that TBs and longeing, however well intentioned, rarely help with this problem. They need to be reassured that they really are supposed to reach for the bit, and that you really will support them with a balancing outside rein when they do. That’s nearly impossible to do from the ground; your leg must be there to encourage them to properly engage the hindquarters and work over their back. :yes:

JME. :cool:

just started a partial lease on a 14 y/o TB gelding. He’s a very sensitive, hot horse who needs very little hand. I’ve only ridden him twice, and I’ve found that it’s hard to get him to track up and really relax over his topline. He’s very good at faking it! If I keep my hand quiet and steady, with very little weight, he’ll come down on the bit but I still don’t feel like he’s through behind back-to-front.

– a ‘quiet steady’ hand can’t take a ‘fake’ posture and make it into a real a connection. the connection comes from the ‘push to the quiet hand’. the leg aids and the soft following, encouraging seat are what make that ‘fake posture’ become a real connection. a connection on a big heavy fronted horse may be heavier, and a connection on a more balanced horse may be lighter, but it’s still ‘honest’ - flexible, adjustable, a real ‘conversation’, not a ‘horsey hiding behind the bit’.

– even with a ‘shy’ horse that takes a very light contact, the work chosen for the lesson and how it’s done wind up at the end of the lesson with a more solidly connected, flexible, honest connection. for each horse the exercises are adjusted-for many horses people WANT to just not take up the reins, but many of these ‘light’ horses are actually stiff and need a lot of very clever suppling - different leg yield exercises, very forward work, and no, not always just stretching, and for sure not just letting go the reins to avoid the issue, but stretching probably will be a part of the solution.

–‘come down on the bit’? one can’t get a horse to ‘come down on the bit’, that isn’t what ‘on the bit’ or ‘making a connection’ is about.

I’ve been reading Dr. Deb Bennett’s series on conformation, and she says a horse that is not truly using its muscles properly shows a toe-flicking action… it reminded me that the photos I’ve seen of him doing Prelim level [eventing] dressage tests… where he’s clearly not relaxed and is (no surprise) flicking his toe.

– if he’s done prelim dressage tests, he may actually have gotten quite a lot of dressage schooling. it just might take a real knack to get him ‘connected’ properly to the bit. an instructor can show you how. if he’s never really been taught to do it properly, an instructor can also help you learn to urge him out to the bit, ‘accept’ his contact with a quiet hand, and gently supple him.

–i think it would be better to consult with a dressage trainer to determine how to get the horse going more correctly, or to determine what’s most important right now that needs to be worked on first. bennett’s articles are always kind of like, ‘yeah, but’, because while they repeat well known dressage concepts covered in many books, they aren’t automatically going to be the things you need to work on, in the order they need to be approached for you and your horse. in other words, first come first.

What sort of exercises can I do to sloooow his mind down (I swear he’s trying to predict what I’m going to ask him to do next) and help with relaxing his topline so I can work on getting him engaged?

– i don’t feel ‘relaxing his topline’ will help him get more engaged. i don’t feel that getting him more engaged, or worrying about toe flicking, or even relaxing his topline, is the thing to focus on right now. probably some much more basic things, like establishing a rhythm, bending and working on rider position will come first, then as time goes on the other things can be worked on. working with an instructor to learn to steady your horse’s rhythm might come first, or his rhythm may be FINE for him, or it may just feel fast because he’s off balance…or a million other things…

– i think that the first thing to do is to get with a trainer or instructor who can look at the horse and establish a sort of ‘order’ to work on things and move progressively on to the next thing.

–with a horse that takes a very light contact with the bit, stretching can help, but certain other things need to be established first. the instructor can look at you riding the horse and help you determine what to work on first.

–to slow a horse down, circling, making transitions to a walk, avoiding going ‘large’ around the ring, and instead, staying on a circle, may help, but it’s basically the outside rein that regulates the horse’s rhythm, and an instructor can show you how to use your outside rein to regulate the horse’s rhythem and speed more effectively. teaching you and your horse the rudiments of a ‘half halt’ can also help you to regulate his rhythm.

–horses don’t really ‘fake a connection’, but they very often put their head down (‘down on the bit’) without making a real connection with the bit…your instructor can show you how to teach the horse to stretch his neck out to the bit and trust the bit.

I have a TB mare that tends to “hover,” as my instructor calls it (and that’s exactly what she does). I spend a lot of time warming up and just asking her to stretch into a contact–ANY contact–and if she starts to “hover,” I think about just asking her head down. We do lots of circles/turns/figure 8s to keep her thinking.
Eventually I can feel her back relax, and I know our warm up is working when I can half-halt or put a little more leg on her and she stretches even more into the contact. At this point I gradually shorten my reins and ask her just a tad higher than “long and low.” The mare is just a baby, so we don’t get very collected, but warming up in this way helps her start out correctly for whatever work we do that day.

Bend, bend, bend. Not just your hand, but using all of your aids, particularly the outside :slight_smile: and using your inside hand to just ask for flexion at the poll.

IF you know how to do standing flexions, and that is a BIG IF, this can be really helpful for this sort of horse. I don’t mean cowboy “crank the head around” stuff, I mean very careful flexion that only involves the poll, done at a halt with the horse on the aids in the halt and ready to walk off. If you do not know, please, don’t try it.

FWIW, I find a lot of horses that have been trained as event horses have very interesting dressage. Often it seems they have been trained in some other way than what the rest of us consider to be the normal aids. Having had this happen to me more than once when I ran a sales barn, I would not discount the possibility. One horse did LOVELY extensions… by wiggling the reins and clucking. I am not kidding. The rest of his aids were interesting, too. Have seen varying degrees of this, I always try to have a non-threatening chat w/the owner and/or trainer. It can be rather helpful sometimes :lol: So maybe this horse was creatively trained.

Last, sometimes with a horse like this it helps to really slow the rhthym and focus on engagement and straightness. That is usually how I ride a horse like this, with a very inviting inside rein. Not all horses subscribe to the German method of riding forward first to straighten. Some of them it just makes tense.

My experience with hot, sensitive TBs is that this issue comes from the horse not really accepting the leg. They often fake you out by sort of fleeing from the leg but that doesn’t allow the rider to do much that is useful with it.

I would forget about the contact. Work on getting some better acceptance of the leg so that you can put it properly on the horse and the connection from the back into the hand should develop from that.

Absolutely correct. There is a huge difference between being sensitive to the leg, and running from it. :yes:

I would forget about the contact. Work on getting some better acceptance of the leg so that you can put it properly on the horse and the connection from the back into the hand should develop from that.

I partially agree with this, too. Better acceptance of, and proper response to, the leg aids, is paramount. But this cannot happen without a good rein connection too, so both are actually necessary.

humor me.
focus on one thing in your mind while you ride. like a color. mentally let that thought dominate your mind as you ride… forget you are riding in the arena

vast green country side…
hmmm green

see what happens :wink:

With my tb, ground poles help a lot to get him to stretch into my hand and really use his back. Also, lots of transitions, and transitions like from a back to a walk, or a trot-halt-trot, things that really make him think about what I’m asking instead of just anticipating. I also practice going from long and low to medium walk and back. If/when he starts anticipating that we are going back to a long and low then I go into trot, if he starts anticipating the trot from the medium walk then I ask for a halt instead, that sorta thing. Also, as was previously suggested, ring figures help a ton! Don’t get stuck on an endless circle. Practice figure 8’s, then do figure 8’s in half the ring, then ride a 4 leaf clover pattern, then get creative with half circles and diagonals and leg yields, anything to keep him focusing on what you are currently asking instead of giving him time to think ahead of you and get on his own agenda. Adding ground poles into your arena patterns helps too, it works almost like a half halt with my horse, he can get his brain going a mile a minute then he comes up to a pole and he focuses and rebalances for those steps to get his feet in the right place.

Better acceptance of, and proper response to, the leg aids, is paramount. But this cannot happen without a good rein connection too, so both are actually necessary.
It can be this way, if your seat is good enough. And that all comes before rein connection.
The rider understands it just after the horse does :winkgrin:

After all, we are supposed to be smarter :lol:

[QUOTE=nhwr;3167563]
My experience with hot, sensitive TBs is that this issue comes from the horse not really accepting the leg. They often fake you out by sort of fleeing from the leg but that doesn’t allow the rider to do much that is useful with it.

I would forget about the contact. Work on getting some better acceptance of the leg so that you can put it properly on the horse and the connection from the back into the hand should develop from that.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! Your horse reminds me very much of my own. It all comes down to leg acceptence. The horse does not accept leg contact. The horse needs to learn to accept leg contact.

[QUOTE=ESG;3166871]
Umm - it’s a TB. They’re notorious for the “I know what you want! I’ll do it for you, and I’ll do it before you even ask for it!” mentality. Don’t think you’re going to change that. Add that to the fact that he’s already 14, and you have your work cut out for you, in getting him to make a major change.

That said, it’s a huge plus that you’re already getting him to come to your hand, albeit inconsistently. Just keep riding him back to front, and be patient and steady in your connection, and he’ll come around. I’ve found that TBs and longeing, however well intentioned, rarely help with this problem. They need to be reassured that they really are supposed to reach for the bit, and that you really will support them with a balancing outside rein when they do. That’s nearly impossible to do from the ground; your leg must be there to encourage them to properly engage the hindquarters and work over their back. :yes:

JME. :cool:[/QUOTE]

I so had to laugh at your first paragraph. How true. We own one TB that will even stomp his foot if you don’t let him proceed the way he thinks he should go. I am not a proponent for lots of longeing especially with a 14 y/o. TBs and longe lines just never really accomplish what I can do undersaddle. I have found that hotter horses need slower work with less busy-ness. They need lots of whoas and walk breaks. Pretend you are in slow-mo. The need their minds to slow down so their bodies can relax. TBs tend to be not only forward but sensitive so it’s up to the rider to make sure they are sitting correctly and not grasping with their knees or calves. TBs tattle. They let you know when they are being clamped down on and many have little tolerance for the leg. Think Cody. (OP knows this horse). Think of your leg as a whisper. I’ve also found that most of our TBs need looser girths to really use their lungs, expand their rib cages. The hotter horse doesn’t tolerate as much noise from the aids so think about a quiet, more stable bit such as an eggbutt instead of a loose ring. Keep your outside rein stable, but be willing to give your inside rein so the horse doesn’t feel blocked. Lots of lateral bending and then longitudinal. Ground poles are a great way to get the tight backed TB stretching and coming to the hand. Think transitions but really set them up correctly. Half halts. Slight inside flexion. Really breath. Overemphasis breathing. Count your rythm out loud. Talk to your horse. Make sure that when this fellow does come to the bit that you give him an immediate release. At first you may want to overemphasize your release (inside rein). Make sure that your release isn’t jerky and when you do regather rein that you start with leg first and then slowly, slowly, s–l--o–w--l–y pick up the rein. Also realize that he isn’t going to be able to maintain a round outline for long. It’s a strength and balance issue that needs muscling. Give it time. Lots of time.

[QUOTE=FrittSkritt;3166849]
Thanks! I’m actually going to suggest to the owner that she try some Magnesium Oxide, as it helps with muscle tightness – apparently a lot of TBs are deficient in this area.[/QUOTE]

A friend of mine has her TB on Quiessence. She feels it’s made a world of difference.

I’m also going to agree with nhwr. I’ve ridden a LOT of hot TBs in dressage, including eventers. And there is a trap I see many many riders falling into: the horse is “electric” and runs from the leg, so the rider tries to sit as still as possible so as not to upset the horse.

But, in the meantime, he/she stops RIDING the horse’s back. I have found that some of hottest horses I’ve ridden actually need MORE leg and seat… but it has the be the right kind of leg and seat… it has to be very supportive (like a hug), and not “driving” which tends to send them through the roof.

focus on gently but firmly wrapping your legs under him, and asking him to bring his back up. You also need to make sure that YOUR muscles are capable of providing him with a very very steady supportive leg. I find these horses take a LOT of core and leg strength-- not ON the horse, but holding you very very still so that you are supporting yourself in a place where you’re creating the right shape for his back (does that make any sense?). When you get his back up and let him just go forward, it is amazing at how quickly they can relax and become steady. Its the work through the back that helps him let go of the tension… when its done correctly its actually very comforting to the horse.

Good luck. He sounds like a fun project. (I always love working with these guys… it can be hard to undo the bad training, but they want SO MUCH to please you… you just have to show him what you want).

A B1 deficiency might also be some of his trouble. The plus of B1 is you can tell in a week or so if it’s having the desired effect! It made a very large difference in Allie.

This is a bit unconventional, but it’s helped Allie and me: zen circles! When you have a horse that wants to anticipate, doing lots of transitions and changes of direction just causes them to anticipate MORE, and you end up in a vicious cycle. To counteract that, I started just putting us on a 20 meter circle and STAYING there, working on consistency in the trot until she’d relax and stretch down. THEN I’d move to the other direction and do it all over again. It’d be like a half hour of trot meditation, thus the name “zen circles”. Gradually she started relaxing sooner, and in just a few weeks of this, I was able to start working transitions between and within gaits without her anticipating.

The other thing it did was really get me solid - my leg and hands aren’t nagging as much, and she’s able to rely on my balanced rein and hugging leg for support much more.

Just a thought.

I rode yesterday and we’ve already gotten loads better. I noticed when his owner showed him to me, she walked him around the ring once and then went off into a trot. :no: Instead, I kept him on a loose rein, encouraging him to stretch down and out. (Of course, his ears kept flicking back as if to say, “Now? All right, you don’t want me to do anything yet.” [two seconds later] “Okay, how about now?”) We just chilled for about 20 minutes at the walk, letting him take a breather and realize this doesn’t have to be so hard. :wink:

When I picked up the reins, however, he wanted to jig and run off… so I kept him on contact and walked around longer, flexing and straightening, lots of circles and serpentines, keeping my leg quiet but active, and I was able to get him to relax some more. Consequently, when I asked for the trot, he didn’t start racing off with his head up in the air like before.

I’ve noticed he’s very jumpy if there are any sudden movements… which, for me, is somewhat of a foreign concept as my other horse would practically let me hang off his side like a trick rider so I could toss my jacket on the fence. :wink: I have some issues with my left stirrup and will squirm sometimes to get it back on the ball of my foot. I did it a few times (unconsciously), which he hated, and it took me at least 2 circles to get him back to earth. :winkgrin: However, I kept my legs on him - not squeezing, just “there,” doing that sort of active, talking connection, and he was fabulous. We did have some ugly moments (it was only my second ride), but it was much, much better. Before I felt like I couldn’t even touch his sides, this time I kept my leg steady and not driving, and he was much happier.

(I see I added this at the same time as you FrittSkritt)

I don’t know if anyone has added this, I see a lot of make sure you support with a steady supporting leg/hand, ride the back, and so forth, which I completely agree.

But I also want to add that with the electric TBs that run rushed, hollowed and tensed, is that you SLOW them down FIRST. Or rather, keep them slow from the start, much easier than bringing them back from a hurried and rushed pace.
I would start with the hug of your legs at the walk with a light but steady hand, the rein shouldn’t flop around at all and gently wrap your legs around thinking of long and relaxed walk strides that stay slow and supported by your relaxed legs, steady but following hands and seat. If there is ANY tension in any part of that it will be hard for him to stay slow AND relaxed.

To go into a slow/steady trot, increase the support of your legs at the same time that you shorten your rein connection a bit (smoothly) make sure you still follow him with your seat and your arms or you’ll back his hind legs off from moving through his back, let him push off into the trot, concentrate on keeping it slow and steady with your supporting legs, slow elastic seat, and steady contact. Again, all free of tension, but nice and steady with rein and seat connection. Keep it slow from the get go.

Don’t think about “getting his head down”, that is the surest way to find that false connection, especially with light mouthed TBs.

Once you have that correct connection at a slower trot you can play with increasing him forward a bit because if is through at a slower pace he has the best chance of moving forward correctly, not hollowed and rushed. When the trot is through for a TB it can feel like their whole body gets a little heavier and then you actually feel like each limb takes longer to push away from gravity, instead of the rushed/tense trot when their body feels light as a feather, prancing on hot coals, LOL.