Hot Take: COTH needs to stop posting Safe Sport articles on Facebook

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@Temecula_Jumper

The witness statement I quoted above I read on FB. It was posted by the witness in response to Ali’s post on his page. The other statement was/is also on FB posted directly by another witness on her personal FB page.

My question is, how do we know that what Ali thinks is the reason is actually the reason? If SafeSport hasn’t talked to him (as he claims), then he can take a guess at what it’s about, but he doesn’t really know.

As others have pointed out, in some previous investigations, everyone made assumptions about what led to SafeSport sanctions that turned out to be not, or not entirely, true.

The bottom line here is trust. Do you trust SafeSport to conduct a fair and honest investigation, follow their own rules, and make decisions supported by the evidence? I do, therefore I accept that if SafeSport has handed down a temporary suspension, then their initial investigation turned up grounds for doing so. I also trust SafeSport to work the process, as they are supposed to do, and rescind the suspension if, upon further investigation, it turns out that it wasn’t warranted.

[Temecula_Jumper]

@OfCourseItsAnAlter

My question is, how do we know that what Ali thinks is the reason is actually the reason? If SafeSport hasn’t talked to him (as he claims), then he can take a guess at what it’s about, but he doesn’t really know.

I suppose that could be the case. But if the SS suspension is not related to this incident, shouldn’t SS still have talked to him first? Shouldn’t he have some idea about why he is being suspended? The whole thing seems strange. I’m very curious to see how things end up.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

Again, it’s a question of trust. Based on what I have seen from SafeSport thus far in previous cases, I’m prepared to accept the premise that SafeSport is acting appropriately and according to their procedures, so I don’t have to be concerned about what’s going on, even though I don’t personally know the details.

[anon510129]

What is that proof of, exactly?

[DunByMistake]

I can’t claim to know the Safe Sport process off by heart but presumably, they contacted him to say he was being suspended effective today for this reason. Otherwise, how would he even know about suspension unless he wakes up each morning to check the list? Presumably, they’d also have to give him the reason so he can be prepared to apply to have the ban reversed and gather his own witnesses, evidence and whatnot.

If they’re not contacting people to say, we’ve had a complaint regarding this incident and we’ll be suspending you starting tomorrow, then that’s idiotic. How would people even know they are suspended? How would they know the dates of appeals?

I think his statement meant that he had not been contacted prior to finding out he was being suspended. He was not given the chance to defend himself or offer contradictory evidence prior to the suspension. Not to say he couldn’t be lying in his statement but I strongly suspect that’s the reason he was given for the suspension, rather than his own guessing.

I do trust Safe Sport and I think it’s a much needed process. I do trust them to follow their own rules and if they believed allegations were legit enough initially to suspend, then I don’t disagree. I just don’t believe that they suspend people without giving them the reason as I think it leaves them vulnerable to litigation. It’s an interesting case for sure and I’m curious to see the end result after the larger investigation.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@DunByMistake

I can’t claim to know the Safe Sport process off by heart

It’s pretty easy to educate yourself about the process and only takes a few minutes.

For example, there’s this nice infographic:

response-and-resolution-process-2020.pdf

And a 5 minute video, too:

Response and Resolution Process

[Peggy]

I doubt that hiring John Manning as a course designer is the reason for Ali Nilforushan’s suspension. It falls within the rules of both USEF and Safe Sport and has been going on as long as Ali has been running the Temecula/Galway horse shows which is close to two years. Prior to that Tom S used Manning for the HITS shows that ran at Thermal.

I don’t think that USEF or Safe Sport acted appropriately in giving Manning the course design exemption, nor do I think it’s wise to hire him as a course designer, but it’s within the rules. The limited suspension is why Manning is listed on the SafeSport site, but not the USEF one; USEF has no provision for listing anything but a total suspension. USEF cites a double indemnity sort of thing for not having an automatic ban on Manning; he was banned or suspended before it was automatic for registered sex offenders, appealed with partial success, and now there some legal reason he can’t be re-banned. Or so USEF counsel says. I had an email explaining it at some point.

[Jealoushe]

There is an exception? Where can I see this?

[Peggy]

@Jealoushe

There is an exception? Where can I see this?

Was that a question for me? I realize the new board is quirky at times.

This might help. It’s an article about John Manning and Steve Milne. https://www.ocregister.com/2020/02/19/two-suspended-by-u-s-center-for-safesport-remain-involved-in-equestrian/

[initiate1987]

The article fails to mention that JM and his wife also owned a stable that taught minors and had an IEA team. Several of my (at the time) teenage friends rode there and I saw him at several horse shows as a teenager myself. BS he had no contact with teenagers.

[Jealoushe]

yes, thank you!

[BITSA]

I agree. they should post but turn comments off.

[BITSA]

Ali’s doesnt deal with that. It deals with an argument with an adult (non sexual/non physical) during thermal.

[BITSA]

thats correct

[BITSA]

I agree with you. I am a champion of SS, but the idea of a full (even if temporary) suspension when the issue is non-sexual/non-violent and not involving a minor (and without any seeming investigation) really hurts people’s trust for SS.

[Peggy]

@BITSA

Ali’s doesnt deal with that. It deals with an argument with an adult (non sexual/non physical) during thermal.

I think that I said I doubted Ali Nilforushan’s suspension involved the John Manning issue? May have been confusing bc I didn’t specifically add that it must therefore involve whatever happened during the argument at Thermal.

[ghst13]

I’m interested to see if the temporary suspension gets overturned (I assume he is appealing that decision). If it doesn’t get removed I think it might indicate that there’s more going on than his account of a single argument.

[YankeeDuchess]

@ghst13

The part I’m having a hard time reconciling in my head is that I thought SafeSport only imposed temporary suspensions if they felt their was significant risk to allowing the accused to continue participating in the sport while full investigations take place.

Ali contends a 5 minute conversation is what resulted in the suspension, which seems unlikely when there are other actions like no-contact directives that can be used. What made SafeSport consider him a risk to the general horse showing population? Did the reporter of the infraction highly exaggerate or lie about the incident? Is the reason for the suspension actually a completely different incident or in addition to the 5 minute conversation reported by Ali?

There’s a window to appeal the temporary suspension so it will be interesting to see if it is removed.

This is my understanding. I think that when a report is made, an initial, brief investigation is done to decide if the report is worth a full investigation. If it
looks like a legitimate case, a full investigation follows. I think that often the respondent is NOT suspended pending the investigation. However if the first, brief investigation indicates that there is a risk of more abuse (perhaps to different victims) while the full investigation proceeds, in that case the Perrin is suspended during the investigation. If the alleged incident was serious, but occurred well into the past, there is no suspension prior to the ban.

[OfCourseItsAnAlter]

@BITSA

Ali’s doesnt deal with that. It deals with an argument with an adult (non sexual/non physical) during thermal.

But, again, how do we know that? Does anyone actually know that the only issue is some non-sexual, non-physical argument with another adult at Thermal? Because as far as I know, SafeSport doesn’t release all the details of their investigations even after they’re finished, let alone this early in the investigation.

[EmilyM]

I personally find the comments section on the safe sport articles useful to determine which horse professionals I will never give money to