how many nurse mare foals have you killed and skinned?

[Kyzteke]

I think whoever runs that “rescue” in OH is running short of $$$ (kid is off to college? they need a new barn? Pick up truck needs repair? need a heated swimming pool?:rolleyes:) so it’s time to make up yet some more bullsh!t horror stories to induce soft-hearted, soft-HEADED, people to open their wallets and contribute.

It IS the Christmas season, after all.

If I had more time, energy & know-how I’d start a “Boy, Is This Rescue Waist Deep in Crap” website to link up with her’s. She (I’m assuming it’s a “she”…my apologies if I got the gender wrong) has about 1% fact intermingled with 99% hyperboyle & hysteria.

I’m willing to bet my left kidney (and that’s the good one), that most of her “supporters” are not only NOT breeders, but probably not even horse people.

I remember reading Herriot’s book where he described using this method with sheep. IIRC he was trying to get a ewe to adopt an orphan lamb. The ewe’s lamb had died and the orphan lamb had been rejected by it’s dam or something like that.

But otherwise? Never even heard of such a thing.

Now, if folks want to get their knickers SERIOUSLY knotted up about a truly inhumane practice, that is actually, honestly TRUE, then how about a “rescue” for newborn male calves who are being raised for veal? I don’t see anyone lining up to rescue them.

Or how about the geese who produce pate? Do some research on that lovely practice. Or, for that matter, just about any animal we eat on a regular basis that is raised via “factory farming”.

Funny how very few folks feel even a twinge of guilt when they stick a fork into that steak or turkey or pork chop, but geeze…if it’s a horse or a dog everyone has a cow!!! (so to speak).

I love horses, but they aren’t the only intelligent, feeling creature on the planet.

Oh – in answer to the OP’s question: Seven.

[Equibrit]

“People will believe a big lie sooner than a little one, and if you repeat it frequently enough, people will sooner or later believe it.”

Walter C. Langer

[Ticker]

"

I’ve done it several ways with nurse mares. In Texas, we’ve skinned the dead foal and then placed the hide on the adoptive foal to fool the mare. Rubbing her own urine or milk onto the new foal will also help with the scent. It’s weird though. You’ll see the mare with the foal assuming it’s her’s, the hide will slip a little and she’ll get a whiff of the foal and become agitated so you’ve got to make sure the hide is secure for at least 3 or 4 days. After that, the hide gets crispy and shrivels.
"

Here is the link to someone who has posted on this in the past.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071115111123AAu2JMj

[Equibrit]

Yahoo is NOT a source.

[Calamber]

[QUOTE=Kyzteke;7907011]
I think whoever runs that “rescue” in OH is running short of $$$ (kid is off to college? they need a new barn? Pick up truck needs repair? need a heated swimming pool?:rolleyes:) so it’s time to make up yet some more bullsh!t horror stories to induce soft-hearted, soft-HEADED, people to open their wallets and contribute.

It IS the Christmas season, after all.

If I had more time, energy & know-how I’d start a “Boy, Is This Rescue Waist Deep in Crap” website to link up with her’s. She (I’m assuming it’s a “she”…my apologies if I got the gender wrong) has about 1% fact intermingled with 99% hyperboyle & hysteria.

I’m willing to bet my left kidney (and that’s the good one), that most of her “supporters” are not only NOT breeders, but probably not even horse people.

I remember reading Herriot’s book where he described using this method with sheep. IIRC he was trying to get a ewe to adopt an orphan lamb. The ewe’s lamb had died and the orphan lamb had been rejected by it’s dam or something like that.

But otherwise? Never even heard of such a thing.

Now, if folks want to get their knickers SERIOUSLY knotted up about a truly inhumane practice, that is actually, honestly TRUE, then how about a “rescue” for newborn male calves who are being raised for veal? I don’t see anyone lining up to rescue them.

Or how about the geese who produce pate? Do some research on that lovely practice. Or, for that matter, just about any animal we eat on a regular basis that is raised via “factory farming”.

Funny how very few folks feel even a twinge of guilt when they stick a fork into that steak or turkey or pork chop, but geeze…if it’s a horse or a dog everyone has a cow!!! (so to speak).

I love horses, but they aren’t the only intelligent, feeling creature on the planet.

Oh – in answer to the OP’s question: Seven.[/QUOTE]

There was a Herriot story about a valuable mare and a foal lost by two warring horse breeders in which they did this, complete with wiggling the dead foals ears over the stall wall.

[spotted_draft_x_fill]

Ticker I have worked for Darley and I can tell you they don’t have any nurse mares let alone shires on their property lol. If they need a nurse mare they rent one from the nurse mare farm.

[JoZ]

Many informal nursemare arrangements involve a mare that has lost her foal through natural or accident causes as well as a foal who has lost its dam. The only time I have heard of getting the foal smell on the orphan was when the “nursemare’s” dead foal was, for want of a better term, fresh and available. And that was by rubbing the dead foal with a towel, not by skinning it. When my friend’s mare lost her foal and someone came to pick up the mare to use with their orphan, we offered to send along the towels we had used to dry the foal.

I think people who want to spin a story snatch bits and pieces from things they’ve heard or even things they’ve seen and piece it together in the most dramatic and hyperbolic way possible.

[Riverotter]

Can I just, from an agricultural standpoint, put the skinning thing to rest?
It IS done with lambs. When you have a flock of several hundred sheep giving birth over the course of a few weeks, you will have some deaths of both mothers and babies. Bottle lambs are the single most obnoxious thing on the planet, and there is plenty enough work without them.
And please keep in mind that sheep have multiples - twins are the most common. Every ewe has milk for 2. If a ewe has triplets, sometimes she will only accept 2 and you have to do something with the unlucky third.

Sheep have maternal instincts that are very, VERY strong for the first 24 hours after giving birth, and the sooner to actual birth the more they want to mother whatever smells right. ANYTHING that smells right. I had a friend once who had a hugely unhappy sheep when a chicken got right under her as she was giving birth, got soaked (ewwww, I know) and then would NOT hold still to be mothered. The ewe had to be penned with her own lamb to stop her chasing her wayward chicken child.

Baby lambs are born with a nice, spongy coat of wool that is SOAKED in amniotic fluid and retains a hugely strong smell of the mother for about 3 days (after which it is washed off and they are basically odorless).

So here you have this sea of mothers and babies and all the mother cares about is that there are one or two little lambs that smell right. If she has a stillborn, you can, in fact, skin it and that wooly sponge of birthing fluid strapped on to an orphan or rejected lamb will do the trick if she’s given birth in the past 24 hours. If she has a single and you catch her in the act of giving birth, you can throw the placenta over a lamb needing a mother and the orphan’s wooly sponge will suck up enough amniotic fluid to make the hormone-crazed ewe convinced she had twins.

So it works on sheep only because baby lambs basically reek and ewes are positively stupidly desperate to mother anything that smells like their own amniotic fluid. And with sheep, it still only works if the mother is still in that hormone-induced mothering craze, which lasts all of a day.

So, while I’m sure that some idiot has tried it with any species you can name, and in spite of the fact that some motherly beast may have adopted the orphan anyway, there is ZERO benefit to doing this with anything except for a sheep. It can do exactly nothing to encourage the mother to accept the baby.

[LaurieB]

Ticker you are obviously having a wonderful time with google, both here and in the thread on Off Course. But it’s mystifying to me why you would rather believe the most outrageous online sources you can find rather than simply listen to people who have actually done this deed that you seem to be so curious about.

Yahoo? Really?

[Ticker]

LaurieB,
I posted in off course that someone I know told me about this subject. Someone who had worked on a large farm for many years, and had witnessed this.
This is a valid process for facilitating an adoption that I have known about for many years. I’m not curious at all. You are correct that there is very little about it available on line, which did surprise me. It’s difficult to say to people…hey this does happen…it’s nothing new…when there is little online but a few book references.
My post was met with disbelief, it’s a myth, it never happens. I thought it was common knowledge, but apparently, it’s not.

My posts were meant to be FYI as you may have noticed that I have not offered much in the way of commentary. I’m not judging or advocating.

[LaurieB]

[QUOTE=Ticker;7908500]
LaurieB,
I posted in off course that someone I know told me about this subject. Someone who had worked on a large farm for many years, and had witnessed this.
This is a valid process for facilitating an adoption that I have known about for many years. I’m not curious at all. You are correct that there is very little about it available on line, which did surprise me. It’s difficult to say to people…hey this does happen…it’s nothing new…when there is little online but a few book references.
My post was met with disbelief, it’s a myth, it never happens. I thought it was common knowledge, but apparently, it’s not.

My posts were meant to be FYI as you may have noticed that I have not offered much in the way of commentary. I’m not judging or advocating.[/QUOTE]

If repeatedly harping about the subject and citing multiple online sources (many of them dubious) isn’t advocating, then what is the point? To make people aware that you think that this illogical, preposterous thing is actually happening somewhere in the real world? If so, consider it done.

We believe that you believe it. :rolleyes:

[stoicfish]

[QUOTE=Ticker;7908500]
LaurieB,
I posted in off course that someone I know told me about this subject. Someone who had worked on a large farm for many years, and had witnessed this.
This is a valid process for facilitating an adoption that I have known about for many years. I’m not curious at all. You are correct that there is very little about it available on line, which did surprise me. It’s difficult to say to people…hey this does happen…it’s nothing new…when there is little online but a few book references.
My post was met with disbelief, it’s a myth, it never happens. I thought it was common knowledge, but apparently, it’s not.

My posts were meant to be FYI as you may have noticed that I have not offered much in the way of commentary. I’m not judging or advocating.[/QUOTE]

If you are actually aware of a single nutjob that is doing this you should report them. This is not common practice, it is a ton of work and really doesn’t do much to help the adoption process.

If I owned a 200k foal, I really wouldn’t let someone that would kill a foal to skin it, go anywhere near my foal. That is not good animal care.
A big ole mare that lets anybody drink would be my first choice. And with 200k in stud fee, I probably could afford a better situation then Silence of the Colts Daycare.

[Kyzteke]

[QUOTE=Ticker;7908500]
LaurieB,
I posted in off course that someone I know told me about this subject. Someone who had worked on a large farm for many years, and had witnessed this.
This is a valid process for facilitating an adoption that I have known about for many years. I’m not curious at all. You are correct that there is very little about it available on line, which did surprise me. It’s difficult to say to people…hey this does happen…it’s nothing new…when there is little online but a few book references.
My post was met with disbelief, it’s a myth, it never happens. I thought it was common knowledge, but apparently, it’s not.

My posts were meant to be FYI as you may have noticed that I have not offered much in the way of commentary. I’m not judging or advocating.[/QUOTE]

Who was the person and what was the farm? It slays me that you can have one yahoo who tells a story and then actually suckers people into believing it.

And yet, when dozens or people who are actually breeders or actually worked on large farms have never even heard of such a thing, you STILL cling to the lie.

It’s like you actually prefer this horror story to the truth.

Ticker, there are enough actual, terrible things happening in the world without making more up. I will be the first to say there are somewhat dubious practices that go on in the world of animal breeding, but this is not one of them.

All for supporting causes, but why not put your energy into one that actually exists?

Like that whole veal/calf thing. Those guys could use your help.

[whitney159]

I’ve not worked on a large breeding farm, but have been on them and can tell you that what I’ve seen is a bunch of TB mares with their TB foals at their sides, no nurse mares in sight.
BUT, as for the skinning thing…once source people might be recalling would be an old copy of “The Encyclopedia of the Horse”. I grew up a horse crazy girl and had this book and distinctly remember a series of pictures of a baby who had lost his mom being introduced to a mare that had lost her foal and it had the dead foal’s skin tied to it and a description of how this helps the mare accept the other foal. BUT this what where the two had both suffered a loss and were put together. I can see someone taking that and turning it into “it’s common practice”.

[Laurierace]

Don’t they give the mare something, oxytocin maybe? when the foal nurses as well to foster good will towards the baby?

[Home_Again_Farm]

I used a nursemare service one time. In hindsight, I realize that I was 1) shellshocked and not thinking clearly from losing a wonderful mare 20 hours after she gave birth, 2) more than a little naive and 3) really wanting a horse mom for my colt after raising an orphan the year before when her mom tried very hard to kill her. I am not happy to talk about this and not proud that I chose a nursemare for my foal.

However, no foal was killed in order to make it happen.

The mare and her foal (the foal was over 3 months old) was brought to my farm. Mare was blindfolded, hobbled behind, tied in the stall and a product (I think it was called Acclimate) was sprayed on the mare and the foal that we were hoping would be adopted. Within 5 minutes the mare was allowing the foal to nurse. The mare had access to grain, hay and water where she was tied. Several hours later I took off her hobbles. The following morning I removed the blindfold and turned the two out. She had fully accepted him by then. She did a wonderful job raising the colt.

I was told that the nursemare’s real foal was to be taken about an hour away where he had been apopted. In hindsight, I hope that was true. The people I was working with seemed to be sincerely caring for that colt while their mom was bonding with the other colt.

I never used another nursemare and never would under any circumstance, even though in my situation the colt flourished with a new mom. But today, drugs can initiate lactation, an igloo makes feeding an orphan simple. There is no need for a nursemare that has a living foal by its side.

I do not believe that skinning is at all common - not even very, very slightly used. It is something that MAY have been done occasionally decades and decades ago. The Herriot books were written about the time when veterinary science was in its infancy, before and around World War II. Much of what may have been done then has mostly gone away, except among a few select idiots.

[spotted_draft_x_fill]

Waiting for a drug to induce milk or using an igloo might be fine for a small operation. But when you have 100-200+ mares it’s not easy. A lot of the farms will have 1-2 people in each barn, some places you get lucky and you will have 3-4 people. It’s hard enough when you have horses that are sick and need to be quarantined in another barn and you have to thin out your staff to take care of that barn. Plus if you only have 1 or 2 orphans especially if there’s a significant age difference, where on a large farm are you going to turn them out without worries about injuries or how the foal will turn out later in life? The reasons they have nurse mares is so the foal can learn to be a horse. You can’t really teach that with bottle feeding or using an igloo.

[Laurierace]

The nurse mare foal whose dam raised Rachel Alexandra’s filly in 2013 still very much wearing his skin.

[Bats79]

Having been exposed to the difficulties of the orphaned foals of "nurse mares’ we decided we would raise our orphan by hand rather than pay for the use of a nursing mare.

However we did let it be known that if anyone had a mare who had lost her own foal we would love for our orphan to have a “normal” mother if possible.

Funnily enough, one of our own mares found in really interesting watching us play with and feed our orphan - she hung at the fence calling to him and while she didn’t have any milk she really did want him to suckle.

The medication - domperidone (a drug first discovered for the treatment of parkinson’s disease I think) was given to us by the vet because it was out of date but we couldn’t find any more in the State. She had 10 doses over 5 days and it worked a treat. After another week she was fully feeding the foal and we stopped supplementing him (which the little porker hated)

We made a little video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6myoweqVs2o

[Pennywell_Bay]

My now 7 year old gelding was bottled raised. I didn’t have to teach him to be a horse as I had a wonderfully gentle babysitter. His vice is nipping at hands so I had to teach h this was not acceptable towards humans. He integrated into the herd and they taught him proper horse behavior. To this day, he. Gets no treats and I warn visitors of this policy and why.

Skinning a foal is just not a common practice.