Speeding is also common practice across the US. It’s still illegal and you can get fined if the cops observe you speeding. Similarly, misclassifying an employee as an independent contractor is illegal and the employer can be fined if the IRS becomes aware of it. But we don’t have enough cops to catch everyone speeding nor enough IRS agents to catch everyone cheating on their taxes.
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In what state?
this is absolutely not a requirement of state law in the state(s) with which I am familiar. Over 40 yes, but over 8 no.
Speaking universally about that which is specific is generally not advisable.
I’ve worked where overtime only began after 80 in a 2 week period. Over 40 in 1 week was not overtime. :yes:
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Just a rule of thumb but I do think it applies in Washington, Oregon and Alaska. Frankly, the hunter/jumper industry is rife with labor law violations, just as farming, some manufacturing and construction.
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Ummmm if someone works 5 days a week 8 hours a day and one day is over 8 hours that automatically vaults the person into overtime. It’s a general rule of thumb. Granted 35 hours is now considered full time, but we all know that set hours at a barn are nice but animals have a way of extending those hours. Or maybe you don’t know that. It’s called math by the way.
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We also are talking about the horse industry where overtime is exempt from hourly pay.
Agriculture is generally exempt from most overtime regulations at the federal level. States may apply more stringent rules, as California is phasing in.
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The rudeness on this thread is really unnecessary. We can make our point(s) without the nastiness. :yes:
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I can think of a couple of places where the grooms clocked in and clocked out, and were paid overtime, at least when they were home. I don’t know if it worked differently at shows. Those were places where the payroll was done properly, and everything was extremely legal.
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I was refering to hourly employees. Putting people on salary would alleviate a lot. And I’ve worked for places like you have mentioned but not all places are like that.
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I wasn’t intending to be nasty, but there is a dark reality to the horse world that some people like to ignore based on experiences that are outside of that world. Calling into question that rule, demonstrates an ignorance that I couldn’t let slide.
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I pay my groom legally, not in the H/J world. She gets $38,000/year plus excellent housing. She gets paid through a payroll company. No way could I figure out all the taxes, social security, etc. It costs me over $42,000/year to cover her salary.
The problem I’ve run in to, is that in my state, NO one will write worker’s comp insurance if you have fewer than 4 employees (I am a private person, not a business, but that wouldn’t matter). You are not legally required to have it, so they just won’t write it.
So, even doing everything legally, I am still in a serious liability situation. Even if I were to buy her health insurance, that company would come after me if she were hurt on the job. Sometimes, you just have to live with risk. 
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To the music teacher…Sounds like you set your own hours, provided your own materials, and controlled the curriculum. Many would consider that “control” of the basic working conditions, so not a good analogy. Also, an incidentally, when I taught a course for a state university for two semesters (just a couple hours a week, and basically as a favor), I absolutely got a W-2 for the de minimis compensation, and even had to get enrolled in the state teachers retirement system–i.e., was treated like a full fledged employee even though I was doing two hours once a week. And I laughed with friends at the time (gallows humor) about how much less stress it was than teaching riding lessons–no one is going to die or be maimed in a two hour lecture in a lecture hall. I still can’t fathom that people in this industry are more willing to take on uninsured liability than to hire a bookkeeper/payroll company to do the withholding and quarterly reporting for employees, or to pay WC premium, which is a fraction of what the medical bill and tort liability exposure could be for an injured worker. For the person who says no WC coverage is available, do you have a state fund alternative in your state where you can go in lieu of a private carrier? Might be worth checking out.
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I can do math. And 35 hours is NOT full time. It is a way for employers to avoid providing benefits. But of course, you wouldn’t know that, would you since you probably only hire undocumented persons and “contract workers”. Geez.
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Umm no. I work outside of the horse industry. I’m with you. And yes federal regulations stipulate 35 hours a week is now full time for hourly employees. I wasn’t refering to you about the math. I was speaking to the person I quoted.
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Wow. Three people emailed me this. Good thing it’s Sunday and we all have time on our hands. I’m owning up to a new COTH alter ego since I post often enough with identifying info that too many of you know who I am. This is about employment law issue and my employer won’t much care for me sharing. Not too mention that I sign a NDA every few months. Yep, maybe this makes me a coward. OK. I’ll deal.
I run a barn that most of you would think is one of the top three or five going. Of course we all think that but I’m not one for false modesty. Our program is very good. Everyone here is very good. We like to think we know what we’re doing. Of course, this means that we’re wrong 50% of the time but, hey, we’re in the horse business. Being wrong only 50% of the time makes you a certifiable genius.
I’ve read every post twice. Honest. Two beers later, I have a few ground rule thoughts:
- This whole name-calling, shaming, blaming thing makes us look like the insular bunch of a-holes that people assume us to be. Let’s just agree to stop, OK?
- There are some really smart people weighing in here. Findeight and MHM and Midge and Poltroon post a lot. We don’t always agree. But they’re honest and smart and trying to be helpful.
- The comments disparaging new commenters are pretty lousy. It is bullying. New people are welcome. New ideas are welcome. This whole thing about old timers leaping to each other’s defense is pretty weak. Can we just agree to be nice to newcomers? Cut some slack.
- Even morons shouldn’t be called morons. It makes otherwise good thinking people sound, well, moronic.
OK. So thanks for indulging me with some proposed ground rules. I don’t know if I’m right but here’s what we do and here’s what I think:
- I think HonestPersonFakeAccount is trying to share what they do and that’s cool. I think their experience is pretty prevalent. I also think it’s not totally kosher because they should be employees in the situation that’s been described. But I’m really grateful for them sharing this experience. It informs the discussion. It also reveals opportunities for improvement.
- I think that what has been described as compensation for top grooms is pretty accurate. Around $80-100k per year with housing. Six days working per week. Start at 6a. Done by 4p. 2-4 weeks vacay. At my place, we figure on 2,500 hours per year. We don’t pay overtime. Everyone is salary. It’s a hard job in even the best of circumstances. Top people deserve a fair dollar. We try to be around $35 per hour with our grooms. This seems to work. Two years ago we had some fancy pants consultants audit our business to see where we could improve. They had a few good ideas that we implemented. They thought our compensation was on the high side of their “comparative analysis.” Our grooms averaged $88,000 per year in salary. Highest paid make $138,000. Lowest paid (a real newbie) made $62,000.
- We aren’t big on bonuses or tips. We do something for the holidays. That’s about it. Grooms share housing and hotel rooms. On the road, we put everyone up decently – Marriott places mostly. In Florida, we make sure everyone has their own bedroom and bathroom.
- Grooms get the same health insurance that I get. It’s OK. Dental has a big deductible. No vision. If we break a bone, we won’t go go broke. It’s basically catastrophic coverage with minimal ongoing treatment benefits. But, hey, it’s coverage and I think it’s decent that everyone gets it. Employer pays it all.
- No retirement plan beyond whatever I sock away.
- We offer this same package to everyone. We only hire legal persons. This isn’t me being harsh or racist or anything other than straight up. If you’re not legal, you can’t work here. That makes it really tough to find grooms sometimes.
- I had a horrible experience that about killed me when I had to let go of an awesome groom and all around good dude when his visa expired and he couldn’t get it renewed. We kept him on for three months under the table until we just couldn’t risk it anymore. It really sucked having to let him go. He was making great money. Supporting his family. He went back to Mexico. His kids stayed in the US to finish the school year. The whole thing sucked.
- I’m more sympathetic than most to people going the IC route because I assume that they’re doing this to accommodate some people’s residency status. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe they’re just trying to shave a nickel. I got to say that it can be hard to get someone with perfect papers. THIS IS A BIG PROBLEM EVERYWHERE. Every program mentioned by the OP doesn’t all have 100% legal people. Just reality. So they can kick them to the curb or keep them employed. It’s a tough situation. These people are family.
- Geez, we really kicked the bejesus out of someone for volunteering that they’re 1099ing grooms making a lot of money. I think the comment about treating the “help” like garbage because we’re paying them a lot was unfair. I read it totally differently. Having been in that position, I’m way more inclined to interpret it like the OP and Poltroon who noted that it’s pretty decent that some grooms are earning good livings.
- Here is what I know and experienced. Back when I was young and skinny, I worked my tail off for $50 a day as a IC. Today lots of grooms get paid $100 per day as a IC or under the table. Someone getting paid $100k per year with vacation and day money isn’t going to be the most sympathetic figure. This doesn’t excuse them not being employees. It does put them in the top 10% of grooms getting paid.
- HonestPersonFakeAccount needs to chill but I get where they got lit about Kenyarider who basically made up a bunch of stuff that was never actually said and made it seem a series of facts. I think a lot of this back and forth was coming from getting worked up about being accused of something that wasn’t true. The monster and special place in hell comments were really off base. I bet if everyone could start over that they would all make different posting choices. Kenyarider sounds like a smart cookie in other posts. Just let this one lie. You say you’re a lawyer, right? Well, maybe recuse yourself.
- We can all do better when it comes to how we treat our people. Employees should be employees. People should have safe workplaces. Access to health care is a basic right. All this being said, I think it’s cool that people are trying to do their best even if they’re calling employees ICs. It’s not ideal, but it’s better than taking advantage of a vulnerable labor force. How about we applaud people for paying well and having safe workplaces AND encourage further steps instead of calling these people criminals?
What makes me the Know-It-All? Absolutely nothing but my experience. But I already told you I’m wrong a lot. So take your best shot, call me a name or two, it’s OK. I’m in the horse business. If I were smart, I’d be an accountant or in real estate or a doctor or something else that my dear mother could brag about. Instead, I go home every day smelling like manure and picking dirt out from my nails. So basically take everything I say with a salt lick.
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Williamdontcallmebilly- Wow, that was an epic first post, even for an alter. Thanks for the kind words. :lol:
The part about having the business consultants audit the operation fascinated me. That seems way outside the box in the horse world.
I, too, can remember working like a dog for $50 a day. At the same time, braiders were charging $20 a mane. That was a while ago!
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Yep, people should definitely properly classify their employees as employees.
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I wish everyone can take a breath and chill out for the holidays. I certainly did not intend for the malice to be thrown around in this thread.
Groom compensation is an important issue, but I like to think we can all rise to discuss important issues without devolving.
There is certainly a lot wrong with the industry, but this will not be solved in this thread. I’m glad we could bring more awareness to the different legal classifications of help.
Lots of love to each of you. I for one am going to give my grooms a big fat show of appreciation this holiday, and I encourage everyone do the same.
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I have to say again, this anonymousness (is that a word?) is annoying because people can claim to be this or that and who actually knows. As far as the claims by some that I am saying things that are not true, here’s the law in my state regarding what a full time employee is:
RCW 72.01.042
Hours of labor for full time employees—Compensatory time—Premium pay.
The hours of labor for each full time employee shall be a maximum of eight hours in any workday and forty hours in any workweek.
Employees required to work in excess of the eight-hour maximum per day or the forty-hour maximum per week shall be compensated by not less than equal hours of compensatory time off or, in lieu thereof, a premium rate of pay per hour equal to not less than one-one hundred and seventy-sixth of the employee’s gross monthly salary: PROVIDED, That in the event that an employee is granted compensatory time off, such time off should be given within the calendar year and in the event that such an arrangement is not possible the employee shall be given a premium rate of pay: PROVIDED FURTHER, That compensatory time and/or payment thereof shall be allowed only for overtime as is duly authorized and accounted for under rules and regulations established by the secretary.
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