How much does a grand-prix level groom make?

[anicolle]

I was 1099ed the last year I worked as a groom.

Most of everyone I was working with made 70k and above. Not totally sure on retirement, health benefits etc. Either way most of the time it was super shady. I’m sure there are lots of stables who have a legitament set up and ones who don’t.

[TheMoo]

@"A"HunterGal

@TheMoo in reference to grooms being able to set their own hours and trade off when/how they worked. That was never my experience.

Oh okay :lol: yeah that’s never been mine either!!!

[jumpoff87]

@MHM

For that matter, in what world can a groom “decline to go to shows”? Or make their own hours? If the whole barn is going to a show, and starting the workday at 5:00 AM there, the groom who “declines” either of those things will be out of a job.

While I would be inclined to agree based on a “regular” groom’s situation, this is about “grand prix-level” or grooms at the very top echelon. I recall reading in an article where Kent Farrington’s head groom (Alex Warriner, I think?) opted to run their home operation while he and other members of his team traveled. Most top grooms don’t just groom - look at Lucy Davis’s and Jessica Springtsteen’s head grooms - they ride and keep their horses fit. So I imagine they could choose to stay home and ride the horses not showing in some instances.

And re: taking a groom to Europe to try horses, I was thinking of maybe if you’re going to go try horses at a horse show in Europe and/or maybe you just need a helper? I doubt a top rider (think Kent Farrington et al.) goes to Europe by themselves, and they don’t have a trainer. Hence, they could elect to choose a groom to accompany them.

Last, by “making their own hours” I meant that they can’t all take the same one day a week off. Thus, they need to rotate. Furthermore, I know show days often do start at 5 am but that doesn’t necessarily mean every single groom arrives at that time every time. What about a groom who needs to work during the night class at WEF until 11 or 12 pm, and others don’t? Do the other grooms just peace out and abandon the late person when they’re done or do they rotate duties based on their horses’ needs/schedules? I think that is perfectly reasonable to consider when employing top grooms.

[ladyj79]

I would here differentiate between someone who has become a barn or stable manager, and an FEI show groom (even if the title is head groom or home groom).

That said,

NONE OF THEM ARE INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS.

Having groomed for an Olympian, nope, it wasn’t an independent contracting position. Even if I could much of the time decide what time I wanted to clean or ride or lunge or clip or whatnot, it was still stuff that had to get done every day. This is equally true regardless of whether one is at home or on the road. My boss being gone for ten weeks didn’t make me an independent contractor.

There are top riders who do employ what I would consider independent contractors, people who work with them for a particular show (we call them freelancers or day grooms), and I have friends who exclusively do freelance work now, I have done this myself, but this is more common for a second groom, rather than a first or only groom, especially when we are talking about top riders and programs. In these cases, employment is usually the length of a particular show or tour. These people I would say could probably legally be classified as independent contractors.

That really isn’t what we are talking about here, to my reading, but instead full time professional grooms for a rider or barn.

[IPEsq]

@jumpoff87

While I would be inclined to agree based on a “regular” groom’s situation, this is about “grand prix-level” or grooms at the very top echelon. I recall reading in an article where Kent Farrington’s head groom (Alex Warriner, I think?) opted to run their home operation while he and other members of his team traveled. Most top grooms don’t just groom - look at Lucy Davis’s and Jessica Springtsteen’s head grooms - they ride and keep their horses fit. So I imagine they could choose to stay home and ride the horses not showing in some instances.

And re: taking a groom to Europe to try horses, I was thinking of maybe if you’re going to go try horses at a horse show in Europe and/or maybe you just need a helper? I doubt a top rider (think Kent Farrington et al.) goes to Europe by themselves, and they don’t have a trainer. Hence, they could elect to choose a groom to accompany them.

Last, by “making their own hours” I meant that they can’t all take the same one day a week off. Thus, they need to rotate. Furthermore, I know show days often do start at 5 am but that doesn’t necessarily mean every single groom arrives at that time every time. What about a groom who needs to work during the night class at WEF until 11 or 12 pm, and others don’t? Do the other grooms just peace out and abandon the late person when they’re done or do they rotate duties based on their horses’ needs/schedules? I think that is perfectly reasonable to consider when employing top grooms.

None of these scenarios is really enough to make them ICs.

[Another-Bay]

Interesting my thread got revived here. I like this conversation, because I think how we treat our often most earnest, knowledge hungry group of workers says a lot about “us” as an industry.

I think we can all appreciate how hard this group works and the level and multitude of skills that one acquires, even when working for regional trainers.

[Midge]

@jumpoff87

And re: taking a groom to Europe to try horses, I was thinking of maybe if you’re going to go try horses at a horse show in Europe and/or maybe you just need a helper? I doubt a top rider (think Kent Farrington et al.) goes to Europe by themselves, and they don’t have a trainer. Hence, they could elect to choose a groom to accompany them.
.

A rider taking a groom with them to Europe is far different than a groom “deciding to fly to Europe to source horses.”

[Janeway]

If a groom was that good at picking out upper level horses for a GP rider, they should probably give up their day job lol

[fordtraktor]

Guys, whatever program this is can easily pay $500k plus many expenses (housing, travel, etc) per year to groom 14 horses. They won’t care about the risk of a few hundred grand in IRS penalties. Let’s be real. Rolling the dice is likely very worth it considering how rarely the IRS bothers to look into such matters. I applaud HPFA for sharing reality but your chiding remarks will be disregarded and there will be grooms lining up for those jobs.

of course, this is way outside my reality but it is how many elite levels function.

[ynl063w]

@Midge

A rider taking a groom with them to Europe is far different than a groom “deciding to fly to Europe to source horses.”

Who actually goes to Europe and sources horses anyway? Other than Dr. Seuss maybe?

[jumpoff87]

@Janeway

If a groom was that good at picking out upper level horses for a GP rider, they should probably give up their day job lol

That would be the rider sourcing horses for clients/themselves and taking a groom/helper along with them.

[TheMoo]

@fordtraktor

Guys, whatever program this is can easily pay $500k plus many expenses (housing, travel, etc) per year to groom 14 horses. They won’t care about the risk of a few hundred grand in IRS penalties. Let’s be real. Rolling the dice is likely very worth it considering how rarely the IRS bothers to look into such matters. I applaud HPFA for sharing reality but your chiding remarks will be disregarded and there will be grooms lining up for those jobs.

of course, this is way outside my reality but it is how many elite levels function.

Where I had a problem with HPFA’s post was that poster saying grooms can LEGALLY be independent contractors in their program despite loads of evidence to the contrary. They are spreading misinformation.

You’re right grooms will line line up for those jobs and a program like that won’t care about the risk. However, people should be able to do their own risk assessment. That cannot happen if people are spreading misinformation. How many people read these forums? How many people get 1099s as grooms working for lesser programs?

I do not care what HPFA does nor do I care how legal of a business they work for. I do care about the spread of misinformation.

[SashaBast]

@poltroon

My admiration and respect for paying these valued people what they’re worth. And thank you for saying so.

A couple of things. First, your workers may have retirement accounts but unless they’re someone’s employee they can’t contribute to 401(k)s from their work. They can have IRA or SEP-IRA which have different rules and limits. 401(k) requires that the employer arrange the program and are not available to the self-employed.

Second: be aware that as people have mentioned, the work of a groom is unlikely to withstand legal scrutiny as a independent contractor should such scrutiny occur. The two ways this is likely is (a) your worker does not pay quarterly and annual taxes promptly and accurately or (b) if one of your workers is injured on the job. I am aware of a barn owner who had a very very bad legal tangle in the case of (b) even though everyone was trying to do the right thing. Note this goes triple if any of your workers are not American citizens. I say this not to frighten or shame anyone, only to inform.

Health coverage: thanks to the ACA your workers can buy their own insurance as individuals. If it is rolled back or repealed it may be that a group plan is the only way to buy it, so that’s something to watch. Note that if a worker is injured on the job that their health insurance is going to be asking after workman’s comp, even if the worker wants to protect the BO, and that their health insurance can sue even without the policyholder’s approval.

I have been the highly paid long term IC and it can be very attractive to both parties, so I understand the appeal of this arrangement. Just know that the scrutiny on these has increased dramatically in the last 20 years and that most of the liability is on the payer, not the laborer.

There are Solo or Self 401Ks. If they are independent contractors acting as a small business, then they can have a 401K. These are relatively new. Most folks are not aware of them. So all you entrepreneurs, go look into them! : )

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/one-participant-401k-plans