How much does check ligament surgery as a baby affect selling price?

[Forte]

[QUOTE=TrueColours;7773158]

And I also agree with what Bent Hickory posted above. As a foal - its of “0” concern but I am curious why you waited until a year old? Was there a medical or progression issue that caused you to wait that long?[/QUOTE]

The foot didn’t start looking clubby until she was close to a year old. At the beginning it was only a very mild uprightness so on my vet’s advice we treated with nutrition, mineral drench and frequent corrective trimming. This wasn’t doing the trick and it was getting worse so the surgery was done at 1 year 4 months.

Most of the buyers I’ve spoken to have never even heard of check ligament surgery and mistakenly thought it was a surgery done to correct a problem with the check ligament. I’m starting to wonder if I should have never even disclosed the surgery. Maybe I am being TOO honest?

[Forte]

I forgot to mention, that in this particular filly’s case, I am pretty sure the club foot was caused by the grazing stance. Ever since she was born she’s always had one particular foot forward and the other one back. I don’t think I’ve ever seen her stand the opposite way. It’s the back foot that’s the upright one that eventually had surgery.

[yourcolorfuladdictio]

I’d be looking into Dr. Redden’s writings on clubbed feet.

http://www.nanric.com/Howtotreatclubfeet.html
http://www.thehorse.com/articles/21124/inside-the-club-foot

He seems to have literally written the book on it.

[Mistysmom]

I would definitely get her started in work so she can start accumulating a riding history. A purchaser can tell if the surgery was done if they look… it does leave somewhat of a blemish at the surgical site. Sometimes very small and the hair in the area can grow back white. There will always be some people who won’t take the chance but your best bet is to get her going under saddle.

[LaurieB]

@Meadow36;7773695

This surgery is done ROUTINELY on thoroughbred yearlings prepping for the sales. It does not affect future soundness; in fact it is done to assure future soundness.

It never ceases to amaze me that whenever a physical or genetic problem is mentioned, someone quickly chimes in to say “ALL Thoroughbred have that”. If the sales company you are associated with routinely does check ligament surgery on their sales yearlings, I would be very interested to know who that is. Please PM me.

In my experience over the last dozen years, watching or being involved in the upbringing of about 1,000 TB foals, none (zero) have had check ligament surgery. I would guess that my experience is closer to the norm. Not to say that it doesn’t happen, but it certainly isn’t a routine occurance.

[Meadow36]

Laurie, I’d be happy to PM you.

[Marshfield]

It really wouldn’t phase me as a prospective buyer. I do think that it may be easier to get her well started, show her a bit, and RAISE her price to where it should be and then sell her. I think there a probably many folks who would be interested in/able to bring forward a green/lightly started horse that don’t have the skills/lack access to somebody to bring a horse from unstarted to lightly started

[Hulk]

[QUOTE=Megaladon;7773031]
Are club foots (feet?) genetic? People are probably less balking at the actual surgery and more the fact she had a club foot. So, say five years down the road she does pop up lame, the potential buyer could breed her, but maybe they are hesitant because of the club foot.[/QUOTE]

this is very relevant. If your browsing through the ads, and you see a very well bred mare at a deep discount price. I would immediately investigate because of the possibility to breed potential. I would become hesitant after hearing about the club foot. (very good on the sellers part to be honest) This might be the reason for lots of inquiry , but no bites yet. If this was a gelding it wouldn’t even be relevant. Also it is a buyers market right now big time.

[khall]

I had to have check ligament surgery on my 2014 LusoX filly at 5 1/2 months old. She had a club foot from grazing stance and the cuff shoe did not fix the issue like it did my 2008 filly. Hoof is totally normal now but there is a scar that is very visible, hoping it will go down some. She is not a sale horse, bred for myself, her dam did NOT have hi-lo or club foot though her grand dam had hi-lo. She is a growthy filly with high set neck and long legs=split legged grazing stance and club foot. I know now I should have put her earlier in the big rolling pasture with tall grass to stop the grazing stance, but hind site is 20/20. I would be concerned that the hoof is still upright and have films taken to see what the boney alignment looks like for your 3 yr old. IMO even hi-lo can cause issues in a horse if different enough.

[ASBJumper]

Well, I will just say that, as someone with a gelding for sale ATM, I disagree that buyers “wouldn’t care one lick” if this was a gelding.

I am AMAZED at how anal and picky buyers are now. Holy CRAP. I am very lucky that my boy has never had an injury, unsoundness or any other issue, but I am consistently being asked “has he ever coliced?” and “has he ever been injured at all?” and “has he ever been ill in any way?”. So far every single interested party has been insanely thorough about soundness and medical history… to the point where I almost felt like asking them “are you looking for something that’s actually made of flesh and blood, or…??” :eek:

Like someone said, it’s a buyer’s market. Buyers want perfection these days.

I agree your best bet would be to back her, get her going w/t/c and then re-list her. Since you train your youngsters yourself it’s not like it would require you to spend a ton more money on her, so why not?

[Fastjofast]

It depends on if there is any scar tissue. I personally know of two horses that people have walked away from becuase of the concern of how it would affect them in a high performance career. I also know of lots of horses who have had the surgery with no effects on their performance career. I guess it depends on how well the surgery was done, how the horse recovered, the future level of performance and the buyer’s knowledge about the surgery.

[Valentina_32926]

It wouldn’t bother me at all - I might ask for a decrease in price but in reality if filly was nice enough and price was decent, I’d pay full price despite the surgery.

I had an Appaloosa filly years ago that had such a surgery, and she never had ANY lameness issues. She is now on a 1000 acre farm in France.

[Valentina_32926]

[QUOTE=Hulk;7776226]
this is very relevant. If your browsing through the ads, and you see a very well bred mare at a deep discount price. I would immediately investigate because of the possibility to breed potential. I would become hesitant after hearing about the club foot. (very good on the sellers part to be honest) This might be the reason for lots of inquiry , but no bites yet. If this was a gelding it wouldn’t even be relevant. Also it is a buyers market right now big time.[/QUOTE]

My Dutch mares grandsire was Voltaire - known for his club foot which never affected his performance. My mare has the same club foot - again has never affected her performance.

Definately genetic but would not necessairly prevent me from breeding such a mare, in fact an Olympic judge told me I should breed my mare (after seeing her work in a clinic).

[Hulk]

[QUOTE=Valentina_32926;7777923]
My Dutch mares grandsire was Voltaire - known for his club foot which never affected his performance. My mare has the same club foot - again has never affected her performance.

Definately genetic but would not necessairly prevent me from breeding such a mare, in fact an Olympic judge told me I should breed my mare (after seeing her work in a clinic).[/QUOTE]

There are club foot genes in other breeds as well. They have also been very successful at high level careers. If you are breeding for yourself, know the horse, know the lines, etc,etc,etc, then by all means breed all you want. It is, and I am not the only one saying it here, a buyers market big time. They want perfection, and the slightest thing off, can bring out the most fearsome tirekickers out in droves. The OP was wondering why lots of inquiries, but no serious bites. This scenario is just one of many that are possible. I was brought up to breed for love of the breed, and to send the best genes forth, as a gift to the future generations. Therefore repeating genetic issues should be avoided in my opinion, but that is just me.

[MysticOakRanch]

@ASBJumper;7777088

Well, I will just say that, as someone with a gelding for sale ATM, I disagree that buyers “wouldn’t care one lick” if this was a gelding.

I don’t think anyone said buyers wouldn’t care if it was a gelding - I think they comment was (or was meant as), it shouldn’t matter MORE if it is a mare vs. gelding. If a person is buying a riding horse. Most buyers of riding horses do not look at a mare and think “well, if anything happens, I can always breed her”. Most buyers board their horses and want a SINGLE riding horse.

BTW, I totally agree, buyers are looking for the perfect horse. And those horses are rare - and can still go lame or drop dead.

[ASBJumper]

[QUOTE=MysticOakRanch;7778456]
I don’t think anyone said buyers wouldn’t care if it was a gelding - I think they comment was (or was meant as), it shouldn’t matter MORE if it is a mare vs. gelding. If a person is buying a riding horse. Most buyers of riding horses do not look at a mare and think “well, if anything happens, I can always breed her”. Most buyers board their horses and want a SINGLE riding horse.

BTW, I totally agree, buyers are looking for the perfect horse. And those horses are rare - and can still go lame or drop dead.[/QUOTE]

The exact quote was “If this was a gelding it wouldn’t even be relevant”. I beg to differ. Unfortunately.

[Forte]

[QUOTE=ASBJumper;7777088]
Well, I will just say that, as someone with a gelding for sale ATM, I disagree that buyers “wouldn’t care one lick” if this was a gelding.

I am AMAZED at how anal and picky buyers are now. Holy CRAP. I am very lucky that my boy has never had an injury, unsoundness or any other issue, but I am consistently being asked “has he ever coliced?” and “has he ever been injured at all?” and “has he ever been ill in any way?”. So far every single interested party has been insanely thorough about soundness and medical history… to the point where I almost felt like asking them “are you looking for something that’s actually made of flesh and blood, or…??” :eek:

Like someone said, it’s a buyer’s market. Buyers want perfection these days.

I agree your best bet would be to back her, get her going w/t/c and then re-list her. Since you train your youngsters yourself it’s not like it would require you to spend a ton more money on her, so why not?[/QUOTE]

It’s a time constraint thing more than anything. I keep my horses at home and do all the training myself, so there is no huge expense to keep her longer and put some more training into her. However I have a full time job, a farm to manage, lessons to teach, clients’ horses to ride and 2 other horses of my own to ride. So every ride I put on this filly means one my day that I don’t get to ride or train one of my “keeper” horses, thus my motivation to rehome this filly quickly.

[Hulk]

This is from what it sounds like a very nice filly ,for a future riding partner, and even in a buyers market , sounds like a great find for someone who is not afraid of a little work. I would suspect when someone does come out to see her they will be packing her in the trailer and heading away. The market loves a motivated seller.

[Backstage]

[QUOTE=Forte;7778483]
It’s a time constraint thing more than anything. I keep my horses at home and do all the training myself, so there is no huge expense to keep her longer and put some more training into her. However I have a full time job, a farm to manage, lessons to teach, clients’ horses to ride and 2 other horses of my own to ride. So every ride I put on this filly means one my day that I don’t get to ride or train one of my “keeper” horses, thus my motivation to rehome this filly quickly.[/QUOTE]

I completely understand time constraints, but I think you need to get her going in order to sell her this fall/winter. Short term hassle for long term gain in time and money.

I was horse shopping this time last year, and I considered some 2 and 3 year olds. While I was willing to buy the ‘right’ 2 year old without sitting on it, when looking at 3 year olds, I expected them to be at least backed unless there was a very good reason. As an amateur who owns one horse, I really do value being able to sit on the horse before purchasing even if it comes as a higher price.

It may not be ‘fair’ but people will inevitably wonder why a 3 year old with a disclosed “issue/non-issue” has not been started, particularly if she is owned by a professional. I think this is particularly true for buyers who may not have any knowledge regarding the surgery - they may wonder whether you have not put her in work because of the surgery or concerns that she will not hold up to work. There are lots of horses for sale, so it can be enough to strike a horse off the list and prevent a potentially good buyer from doing further research regarding the surgery and its implications.

That doesn’t mean there isn’t a buyer out there for her at her current level of training and at her current price point…but I do think its tough market, and you would do better with her started.

[Sunnydays]

A good experienced vet will tell you that if the surgery is successful it will have approximately 0 effect on a performance career. There is so much"lack of knowledge" and suspicion on this topic. The only horses I have known who had the surgery done are all going sound, and competitive. I rode one, who continued his career till mid-twenties, being shod in front only in summer, never needing pads or anything fancy.