How much use is dressage training for hunting?

[wateryglen]

I vote no in general BUT…!!!

I absolutely agree with what ya"ll have said but…I think a LOT of dressage riders are not well educated about the horse handling himself thing or thinking for himself. I see a lot of bad dressage around here that I can’t see how it would help a potential or current fieldhunter. Schooling, training, self carriage, responsive to the leg etc is all good stuff. But I don’t think the endless schooling in circles or lunging in draw reins or whatever is really going to help. I’m of the school that you need to train in conditions close to what you’re going to be asking the horse to do ie: similar footing, conditions, etc. I think horses develop different muscles doing dressage than they might in a field. I really have a problem with the “bending at the poll” thing, cranked noses to the chest and mouth pulling I see in the lower levels of dressage. Just too much “on contact”.

So I guess I’m whining that some dressage done by some people is not good for fieldhunters. AND I’m saying some dressage done by some other people is great! Overall I like to say that a potential fieldhunter benefits from good flatwork schooling!!! See?!!!

[AnotherRound]

I would think that having your horse move with his hind end underhim, and a light front end, in other words, a good, strong, supportive engine, using his back correctly with the strength an muscling throught the back dressage would bring would be an increible asset in the field. He could maneuver better, he would not be hauling on the mouth or heavy on the forehand, he would be able to get his front end up and away and get over the jumps well, strong haunches and hocks make for clever, quick sure footedness.

I had a QH who could sit back on his haunches, do rollbacks, etc. and get me out of any mess.

[whicker]

Wateryglen,

Bad riding is bad riding. You are right that there is poor dressage and lousy trail and cross country skills in our neck of the woods. Many dressage riders haven’t learned the great outdoors skills. Some are petrified of “forward” much less being out of the arena or indoor. There are many horses that are not suited to hunting, as well.

Just as you would bring along new entry, they need encouragement and guidance in a positive way. They don’t know how much they don’t know. But if they develop the passion, then hopefully, they will want to learn.

[Grasshopper]

@Risk-Averse Rider;4424310

I was thinking about the belief - held by some, but clearly not all - that taking an event horse to a high level of dressage “ruins” him for x-c, because he learns to wait for instructions rather than thinking for himself.

Having paid some attention to Wofford’s comments along these lines, I think his point, at least, was more that the increased focus and time spent by many modern eventers on schooling dressage, without corresponding time and focus on balance and independence cross-country, was leading to horses who don’t think for themselves XC.

That said, I think some amount of correct “dressage” schooling benefits any horse–makes them more responsive, more supple, and stronger. At some point–the FEI levels, maybe?–I think it is very hard to develop the muscles they need to compete successfully at that level and also get them in condition for hunting–the long, lean muscles.

Between the way in which Salinero has been trained and his reputed temperament, combined with his strength and athleticism, I’m not sure I’d want to be the one to try hunting him!

[kt-rose]

I definitely feel my ‘eventing dressage’ is good for my hunt horse!! Not sure about the real thing but two days a week of flatwork as correct as I can make it – perhaps, maybe, on a good day, first level work – is good for his rideability, straightness and strength. He gets the day after hunting off and then the next day is always a ‘stretchy’ dressage school followed by a stroll in the woods. Long and low really helps straighten and stretch anything that might be tight after hunting.

As far as making sure he continues to think for himself, well, the boy is smart enough to know – and has done enough cross country with me :eek::eek::eek:-- that if it is big and solid, he’s totally in charge of the jumps. And that the distance I see might not be the best plan. But seriously, we focus on one thing in our dressage schools and another in the jump schools. On the flat, it is about correct and rideable, to the jumps it is about teaching him to be clever, safe and to make the right choice all on his own in front of the jump. The two are not incompatible at this level. At the upper levels it’s a whole 'nother conversation.

Both of us like the hunting days best!!!

[Beverley]

@Grasshopper;4426409

Between the way in which Salinero has been trained and his reputed temperament, combined with his strength and athleticism, I’m not sure I’d want to be the one to try hunting him!

Me neither, but I do want to be there to watch.

It was in the hunting field, watching a tb pull some antics, that I first heard the phrase ‘Paint him white and send him to Vienna!’

[Foxtrot_s]

When I used to go to England more often I was fortunate to be able to ride the Hunt horses.
Oh my - they were like riding a 2x4’s. In wide open country they went fantastically, handled themselves like cats and could jump anything. But as far as listening to my asking them to steady up before a jump, or even slow down, they knew their job and I wasn’t asking/telling them anything.

So, as far as show dressage goes, with all the ‘tricks’, I don’t think it is that necessary, but my own horses were eventers and I sure preferred their level of education.

[JSwan]

[QUOTE=Beverley;4431613]
Me neither, but I do want to be there to watch.

It was in the hunting field, watching a tb pull some antics, that I first heard the phrase ‘Paint him white and send him to Vienna!’[/QUOTE]

I might ride that horse on a bet - but you’d have to hog tie me and pour a lot of Scotch down my throat first. :winkgrin:

Love that quip - I too have seen some antics that left me slack jawed in wonder. :lol: Glad I wasn’t on any of the horses - mine was bad enough!

[lesbrill54]

Well, I guess I’m definitely in the minority here-I’d say no. Of course if you are going to define any form of flatwork as dressage, you’d have to say yes, but while movements like turn on the forehand and haunches, leg yielding etc occur in dressage tests, so do walk trot and canter. Merely being obedient and adjustable is not dressage, as anyone who has taken a quiet schoolie in a dressage test and looked at their marks would agree. You could take a stabilized horse in a test and do the whole thing on voice and loose reins and it wouldn’t be dressage. Real dressage maintains a level of energy even in slow movements, i.e. collected gaits which is detrimental in field riding. Also, dressage work, by shifting the horse into central balance tends to limit the horse’s use of the head and neck for balance, which is critical for both jumping and galloping X-country. (so i guess my forward riding bias is now apparent, but Ive made hunt horses for over thirty years, and its worked well for me.

[Valentina_32926]

@wateryglen;4425518

… But I don’t think the endless schooling in circles or lunging in draw reins … I really have a problem with the “bending at the poll” thing, cranked noses to the chest and mouth pulling I see in the lower levels of dressage.

This is not dressage - just poor riding and training disguised as dressage.

Real dressage is done with young horses in Europe so that when their bodies are mature enough to jump the horse already knows straightness (so less shoulder popping in tight turns), knows how to expand (lengthen) or contract (collect) strides so jumps are taken correctly, know how to “sit” on their hind ends so they can turn tightly and jump with power.

Poor riding is everywhere. Lumping poor dressage as the “norm” is no more correct than people who say that hunter riders ride with no contact (allows horses to pop shoulders and get strung out). Neither is correct.

[PaddyUK]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;4424609]
Any time that you can influence your horse’s movement with very subtle cues is a benefit. Flying changes around sharp corners were always useful. When I fieldmastered my mare would go for miles in a relaxed and stunning extended trot whilst all the rest followed at a gallop. Lateral work is very useful for getting out of the way and half halts, without use of the hands, are a much better way to rate a horse that has to work hard for several hours. My mare was an avid and keen hunter in the winter and an impressive dressage horse in the summer. Maybe Salinero would have been a very different horse if he had spent his early years in the hunt field ?[/QUOTE]

I agree.

My old dressage horse was used as FM horse early in his training and hunting him was a joy.

I am hoping this one (other lad died last year) will prove to be as good.

Paddy

[Painted_Wings]

Dressage improves my hunting and hunting improves my dressage

I do think that dressage work helps both you and the horse. You learn how to balance them up going down a hill etc. My highest trained dressage horse is also the most comfortable for me to hunt. He basically goes balanced and on the bit the whole time in the hunt field and is very adjustable. I can make course and speed ajustments with my seat rather than having to yank. The horse is balanced and quick as a cat anyway so don’t know how he would have been in the field without the training.

On the flip side the foxhunting has really opened up his gaits and improved his dressage scores. Being a Paint horse with stock horse breeding he can tend toward being short strided and getting quicker rather than longer in stride for the lengthenings.

He does fabulous trot lengthenings in the hunt field which do carry over to his dressage tests. His canter stride has also gotten longer and he has more strength and therefore more suspension.

He’s still a brat though.

[gypsymare]

He’s a lovely brat!!

My Paint is the leggy, long-backed Thoroughbred type who lives for the gallop. Dressage training teaches her to listen to my seat, lighten from the leg instead of the bridle and develop the muscles to carry herself in a slow canter to match pace with the rest of the field. In the heat of the chase it doesn’t always work (“ZOMG we’re running, we’re running! Let me go!!!”) , but it’s a nice premise… Leg yielding is incredibly important for avoiding smashed kneecaps while slaloming through the trees at a gallop. It also helps with gates as someone mentioned. It also taught ME to use my seat more and it really benefited with a big draft cross mare I rode last week who really lightened up as soon as I rode off my seat. Without dressage I might not have known how to use my body best to influence her.

That being said, my mare has become much cattier since starting hunting. I trust her to figure out where to put her feet on trappy ground and I don’t micromanage. She needs to figure it out on her own. Afterall, it’s not MY feet hitting the ground, she needs to figure out how to best keep us right side up.