How often do you incorporate cavaletti in your rides?

[Jealoushe]

@flexion

Drilling the same jumping exercise makes hot horses hotter and lazy horses duller.

Interesting, I went to a symposium with Ingrid Klimke and she stated the opposite about the hot horses. The hotter horses were made to repeat and stay in the exercise (cavaletti) until the horse relaxed within the exercise. In fact, the exercise helped the horse quiet down.

I actually carried this into my own riding and it did help with my hot mare, to instead of go through once or twice, to actually repeat the exercise until she relaxed and then finish.

Of course I am not talking about drilling for an hr, I don’t think that is the type of person Ingrid is lol but it was certainly more than a handful of times through.

Keep in mind my question wasnt about drilling for an hr vs. max three times through. My question is more about 3 times only max vs maybe 5-10 times repeat.

[flexion]

@Jealoushe

Interesting, I went to a symposium with Ingrid Klimke and she stated the opposite about the hot horses. The hotter horses were made to repeat and stay in the exercise (cavaletti) until the horse relaxed within the exercise. In fact, the exercise helped the horse quiet down

Oh yeah, this opposing theory seems to be just as (or more?) popular. The way I reconcile it is that in order to settle the horse during a repeated cavaletti exercise, each attempt should be as easy and stress-free as possible, which requires more from the rider: maintaining the horse’s balance at the canter and getting the correct distance every time… easy for Ingrid, not so easy for me on an anxious horse. For the hotter horses that I can’t be 100% accurate on, I take the part about doing a lot of easy cavaletti and combine it with the part about switching it up every few attempts and end up with cavaletti scattered about the ring so that I can just pop over them consistently throughout the ride for several days in a row. I find this method (Ingrid + Kent) to be more effective in the long run.

@Jealoushe

Keep in mind my question wasnt about drilling for an hr vs. max three times through. My question is more about 3 times only max vs maybe 5-10 times repeat.

I interpret the drilling for an hour part of Kent’s quote as hyperbole. The theory is all the same: at some point, repetition becomes detrimental. Based on the research, it clearly depends on the situation, the horse’s age, their temperament, and the rider’s ability to not cause stress. ETA: the physical factor as well, if the exercise is physically difficult (e.g. harder than a cavaletti) or the horse is physically limited (whether the rider is aware or not).

[Jealoushe]

Yes, I think the riders ability is probably one of the most important factors!

[danhelm441]

My horse is by no means “hot” but can be tense and anticipating, and I also think that repeating a pattern until he has it memorized is relaxing for him. When he knows what to expect, he settles into a nice rhythm. Too many instructions and changes in succession makes the anticipating behavior worse for us, even though it’s often mentioned as the cure to a horse that anticipates.

[Mouse_amp_Bay]

Agreed. Especially with learning how to learn in new environments or at shows. Keep them there until they relax and get bored - then you can take them home. You don’t need to ask much while there, but stay to get a couple positive responses, tell them they are brilliant and then head home.

[SuzieQNutter]

Relaxation is the first foundation of the pyramid. The smartest horse I have ever ridden, the first time I took him out he started creating in the float before we had parked. There was no relaxation in that ride. He was only happy with his head over Pepper’s rump. While on him he could not stand, he could not go forward. He could not be held, he could not be led. The comment from the instructor was had I ever been on him before. Honestly I think that is the worst comment a horse trainer could ever receive. It is very cutting. He didn’t learn anything that day.

The next time we went I took him even though he was lame. I just held him at the float because if we went to watch he continually neighed.

It was the best thing I could have done. By the afternoon he was bored. He was relaxed and he never created being taken anywhere again.

As I said the smartest horse in the world, well my World at least… 6 weeks earlier he was in training as a race horse. The owner sent through a foolscap sized Fax with capital letters filling the whole page that said SHOOT HIM.

The day before I picked him up they took him on a 5 hour trail ride and said I would have been so proud of him as he was on the bit the whole time.

His mouth was so sore I could not touch the reins. I had to ride with my head looking to the side because if he threw his head with thinking his mouth was going to be touched he would have knocked me out.

He had no idea how to go in a straight line. He had no idea how to go in a circle.

Yes I said 3 times to learn something but actually it is only once. You give a horse a feed in a feed bin. He does not need 3 times to know that is where the feed is. You show him where water is once he knows where it is. Beginners make a mistake with a green horse they only have to do it once for the horse to learn the wrong way. It is harder to retrain so it takes longer to retrain what has been learned in one go.

So back to Andy with me riding with my head to the side and an arena that I made on a slope. I lunged with no side reins and hopped on for a walk, trot and then a canter up the long side and around the short side. He went off on the incorrect lead once in each canter. I said uh uh and corrected. He NEVER went off on the incorrect lead again.

I did this until his mouth recovered. Then I added loose side reins, which taught him contact.

With that I suddenly had a dressage horse. I taught him circles and straight lines.

Mum came out one month to the day and said that horse should be doing lateral work by now.

I asked for shoulder-in the next day in sitting trot on the centre line. He did it. I praised. I did it the other way, he did it. I hopped off.

The next day I did shoulder-in each way and then in sitting trot I asked for travers, he did it. I praised, I asked the other way and he did it and I hopped off.

The next day I asked for shoulder-in, both ways, travers both ways and then half pass. He did it. I asked the other way he did it and he was praised and I hopped off.

I lay in bed and thought this is impossible. The next day I threw everything at him. Canter half pass, pirouette, f### it let’s ask for piaffe. That horse slowed right down in trot and then sprang forward with out flicking an ear.

1 month and 4 days and the horse bypassed the rider.

I took up the offer by an instructor offering a free lesson and excelled with Tbs off the track. She emailed me back and said she could help me with any problem, whether he was bucking, rearing, spinning or bolting.

I emailed back and said the only problem l was having was that the horse had bypassed the rider and I was at a loss at what to do next. She came out and said let’s see his lateral work and her only comment was that he finds that easy doesnt he. Then all she wanted me to do was for me to teach at ponyclub and compete.

My current instructor said he had never seen a horse so in tune with his rider, both of his ears were back listening to me all the time.

With him I found if I rode every day I could teach him something new. If I missed a day he could not learn something new but he did not forget what he had been taught, so we could run through those things.

I rode him 20 minutes a day. He was sane, relaxed, muscled happy and very fit and that was when I took him to the ponyclub the first time to be asked if I had ever been on him.

Horses humble you.

But yes horses learn fast it is the rider that needs repetition.

[GoodTimes]

There are no absolutes in horses, there are no magic numbers. They are individuals. Any number of factors can influence or inhibit their ability to learn on any given day.

We know that humans, dogs, rats, etc don’t all learn the same way or at the same pace. No one should assume that horses are any different.

No one has mentioned confidence yet. A horse may learn a task after one or two attempts, but it may take 4 or 5 repetitions before the horse is confident that they are answering the question correctly. In that scenario you aren’t punishing the horse by asking again, but solidifying.

Ride the horse that you’re on. Don’t ride the horse from yesterday. Don’t ride the horse from the book. Be flexible.

[SuzieQNutter]

And be adaptable. You need to know how to teach the same thing at least 4 different ways. As each horse and rider learns a different way.

The confidence has to start with the horse having confidence in the rider.

[SuzieQNutter]

From Charlotte Djardin riding at home on Horse & Hound.

“I don’t ride the tests at home — I don’t even ride the extensions,” reveals Charlotte. “It was the same with Valegro too — I would wait until we get to a show to ride the extended trots; I want to save them for when I really need them.

“You have to be quite wise in what you actually do with these horses at home,” adds the double Olympic gold medallist. “We focus on the things that keep them fit and strong, and we use the aqua trainer — we want to keep them long-term fit."

But when she does school at home, what does she tend to include in her sessions?

“We practice pieces of the grand prix, though I don’t usually ride the lines from the test,” says Charlotte. “I might ride a bit of a canter pirouette and then a bit of the zig-zag. I’ll practice half-passes but I’ll also work on travers to help improve the half-pass, and ride leg-yield zig-zags up the wall of the arena.

“I also tend to train the changes along the wall, not across the diagonal, to help keep the straightness.”

And how does Charlotte go about bringing a top horse back into work after a break?

“It’s actually unbelievable that they don’t forget a thing, but they don’t,” says Charlotte. “With Freestyle the movements are secure, so I can still press a button and they’re there.

“Of course if a horse is less secure in a movement, you do have to practice it more, but so many riders always want to do things over and over again — most of the time, they don’t need to do it as much as they think.”

[Willesdon]

What an interesting discussion. My little contribution is that I have found when riding a variety of school horses, those treasures who are ridden by many different people of different standards, they need some repetition and time to recognise the pattern. Once they trust you, understand clearly what you are asking for, then they will try their best for you, and because they are used to repetition, will continue to do it. Then change the pattern, same process again. However, as the school lesson proceeds the trust and relaxation increase and the work improves and the horses enjoyment seems to increase. Then it is really clear how the dressage exercises assist the horse. On thd other hand, when I’ve ridden TBs, with their TB brain running at the speed of sound, ask once they try it, ask twice they do it, ask a third time and they ask “why?”. I find a TB really interesting because as a rider I need to work hard to find ways to keep their brains engaged and working with me. Riding a dressage-bred warmblood, I find I need a lot of repetition to move their brains up through the gears. I personally don’t find them as giving as the TBs.

Personal anecdote isn’t data, but I do think individual character, particular breed traits and life experience comes into play when asking a horse for repetitive work. Humans seeking perfection have their own issues. Horseman, know thyself.

[seriously1]

Take a look at the free app Equisense - lots of different exercises, both with poles and without that my make life more interesting. There are also a couple of Equestrian pole groups on FB that offer different configurations.

[halla]

I’m not particularly experienced, but I have struggled with some of the same things, so for whatever that’s worth…

For a long time (and sometimes still) the ring felt way too small to me, and I was always cutting corners. It seems to have come from not being connected enough, so not only were we going around a tiny bit strung out, but there was a bit of an unpredictable time lag when I gave instructions. So it felt like I need a ton more space than I really did. I’m also riding a horse that knows much more than I do, so when I wasn’t being clear enough he’d start making his own decisions. They weren’t bad decisions, but it was still not great.

My trainer has structured our warmups to get him progressively moving and stretching his body, and also progressively tuning into me. So we hack around the property to get to the ring, start with stretching and big loopy bends, then maybe transitions in and between gaits and medium circles, spiral in and out, leg yields, whatever makes sense at the time, until both of us are really listening to each other.

At that point he’s no longer worrying about what I’m going to ask next, even though he doesn’t know what it is, because he’s getting consistent clear info from me. Instead of my previous “we’re going over that jump…whee!.. uh, where were we going?.. Right! We’re going right!.. oh woops we were supposed to go a little farther first…” haha This is still a work in progress. But it’s made the ring feel a lot bigger.

Kind of along the same lines, you mentioned that it takes more leg to get him going through the ground poles well, and maybe it would help to think of it the other way around - the ground poles are a tool to see if you have enough of a trot/canter, and then once you know what that feels like and how to get it, you can use it elsewhere. And getting it wrong is info, too, now you know what not enough or too much feels like. Then you can practice recognizing it and adjusting.

Last thing and I’ll shut up… my trainer tells me that it’s my job to make sure we have enough energy, the right balance, and are on the right path, and it’s his job to get his feet over the fence. I am thick, so have had to almost pretend there are no jumps in the pathway to stop myself from fiddling.

[danhelm441]

It is so timely you posted this, because I had an “aha” moment along these lines just this morning! And in fact, I only logged back into COTH to ask more questions about it

I have a long-standing habit to avoid rein contact. In my walk/trot lesson years, I rode with an actual loop in the reins, so NO contact. And it’s only been since getting a horse and riding daily that I’ve made any effort to keep that “gentle hand holding” weight from the bit. Even that was a steep learning curve because I had terrible hands that independently wanted to do their own jiggy little interpretive dance at every gait above a walk.

But even now that I am past that, I am super cautious and noncommittal about using much hand. And ironically it means I end up using a LOT of hand when I do use it, because I start frantically hauling on one rein when I realize I have no steering on a course, and both when I have no brakes.

So I realized my problem is that I am too passive in an effort to be soft—with my legs and seat too, but especially with my hands. And it’s partly because I was drilling and repeating the same exercises, I thought I had to be whisper quiet and non-confrontational to “make up” for that.

So lately, I haven’t done much ring work at all. We’ve gone on trail rides, lots of bareback rides in only a halter, etc. And then today, when we did go to the school, I wanted it to be a stark departure from the messing around on the trails. So it was all business, very serious concentrated stuff. I only kept at it for 15 minutes of flatting, but I was much more aggressive and persistent. I asked for engagement and flexion at the poll the whole time (definitely didn’t get it the whole time, but I was asking repeatedly if I lost connection).

And I did so. many. transitions. All in a quick succession. It was really bad and chaotic in all honesty. Especially in the downward transitions, he would throw his head up and speed trot for several strides. I felt like we were careening around in a way that would get some gasps or side eye at a show. But the moments that were good were very good. We finished by doing about six flying lead changes in the corners and all but one were clean behind, which is fantastic for us. I also felt like I could feel the leads so much better when riding with connection. If we were still on the wrong lead or cross cantering behind, I could feel it without having to stop and think about it (or panic and look down ). Doing figure 8s and spirals at canter, my steering and control were light years better than when I use my typical amount of leg and contact. But as demanding and confrontational as it felt to ride with so much effort, it still felt fair because it was so short, and because we’ve been doing so much more low-key stuff all through the holidays.

Anyway, I do still feel like mostly a disaster—probably worse than before, where we were kind of peacefully loafing around for the most part. But I think I’m on a better track to get where I want to be. We performed dismally at our first show, and not at all up to his potential, so the gauntlet has been thrown and I’m hoping we do a little better at our next show.

[Willesdon]

It is lovely to have one of those “ah hah!”
moments. They keep you going when other things don’t seem to fall into place.

As I’m sure you know, contact is a conversation with your horse. Being “soft with your hands” is not the same as having reins drooping round the horse’s kneecaps. This is an important discussion you need to have with your teacher.

[SuzieQNutter]

I love aha moments too.

There are a few sayings for you to think about. You need to really understand them backwards and forwards and upside down to know what they mean.

Learning how to use the reins means learning how not to use the reins.

The longer the reins the deafer the horse.

Soft reins does not refer to long reins or no contact.

And from Charlotte Djardin. Short reins win gold medals.

Now learning contact takes a very very long time for a rider and can not be done in one session, a week or a month. It can not be done without being taught by a person on the ground. Yes read books, yes watch videos. Yes ask on forums. No, do not go ahead without an instructor.

There should be absolutely no agression from the rider and the horse needs to be ridden from back to front with no pulling on the reins. Using the reins to lower the nose is working back to front. This will cause the 3rd vertebrae to be the highest part of the neck and this is what we call a broken necked horse. (This is Not True for cresty stallions.)

Yes short reins, but no to them being taught and tight. The horse also needs to understand contact and what you think about with the shorter reins is lengthening the top of the neck to the bit.

You want the poll the highest.

You need to teach the horse what contact means, because holding the reins and using the legs is also the aids for teaching a horse to rear. It is said that a horse needs to be taught to rear under saddle and that is not something you want to teach. This can be fatal or worse to horse and rider.

So no skimping on lessons. Find a fantastic instructor and things start from there. There are many aha moments in your future.

Ps. I know you did not use agression towards the horse, you were talking about your attitude. Instead think of your attitude as being a working, fair partnership.